Keio University

Mutsuko Hatano: Changing Society with Diamond Quantum Sensors

Participant Profile

  • Mutsuko Hatano

    Other : Professor, Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering, School of Engineering, Tokyo Institute of TechnologyOther : President, The Japan Society of Applied PhysicsFaculty of Science and Technology Graduated

    Keio University alumni (1983 Engineering). Doctor of Engineering. After working at the Central Research Laboratory of Hitachi, Ltd., she became a professor at Tokyo Institute of Technology in 2010. President of the Japan Society of Applied Physics in 2020 (until March 2022).

    Mutsuko Hatano

    Other : Professor, Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering, School of Engineering, Tokyo Institute of TechnologyOther : President, The Japan Society of Applied PhysicsFaculty of Science and Technology Graduated

    Keio University alumni (1983 Engineering). Doctor of Engineering. After working at the Central Research Laboratory of Hitachi, Ltd., she became a professor at Tokyo Institute of Technology in 2010. President of the Japan Society of Applied Physics in 2020 (until March 2022).

  • Interviewer: Shinnosuke Obi

    Faculty of Science and Technology Professor, Department of Mechanical Engineering

    Interviewer: Shinnosuke Obi

    Faculty of Science and Technology Professor, Department of Mechanical Engineering

2022/03/15

From Corporate Business to University Education and Research

──First, I would like to talk about your specialty, diamond research. Regarding your career, you joined Tokyo Tech after conducting research from a corporate perspective at Hitachi's research laboratory, didn't you?

Hatano

In the corporate world, after conducting basic research on superconducting devices aimed at applications in supercomputers, I was engaged in research and development directly linked to business, such as power devices and mobile displays. I also served as a project leader for a new business related to environmental electronics.

When I moved to Tokyo Tech, I scrapped everything once to start fresh and began a new theme using the ultimate semiconductor material: diamond, the king of gemstones.

I believe it is important to fuse different fields to create new value. It was a start from zero, but I took on the challenge of seeing if I could create a new research field through collaboration with multiple research institutions. I also received guidance from President Kohei Itoh, who was already a leader in diamond quantum research, and we jointly planned international symposia. I truly feel that the importance of interdisciplinary fusion and comprehensive knowledge was something I was educated on at Keio.

Currently, I am conducting research on diamond quantum sensors aimed at solving social issues in healthcare and low-carbon societies.

──Where did you obtain your doctoral degree?

Hatano

After graduating from the Department of Electrical Engineering and joining Hitachi's Central Research Laboratory, I obtained my degree from Keio as a Dissertation Doctor. The theme of my thesis was research on superconducting devices.

──So you were writing papers even after joining a company after graduating from the Department of Electrical Engineering.

Hatano

Yes. Since writing five papers was necessary to obtain the degree, I published six papers and had them reviewed as my doctoral thesis. The important question with no right answer during the oral examination—"Will this technology be useful for humanity?"—still leaves an impression on me today.

In the corporate world, it was before the enactment of the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, and the utilization of female researchers was in a trial stage. However, I was blessed with the understanding of those around me. To perform on equal footing with men, I was given the opportunity with the advice that "it's better to get a doctorate early, but do it outside of working hours." My eldest daughter, who was two years old at the time, even came with me to meetings with my examining professors, and the professors at Keio were very understanding. My eldest daughter also dressed up and attended the degree conferral ceremony at the Mita Enzetsukan (Public Speaking Hall).

When I was an undergraduate, it was just the time when the Department of Physics was being established at Keio. There were famous professors like Ryogo Kubo, Fumiko Yonezawa, Junya Seko, and Hideki Miyajima, who also guided me during my doctoral examination, and Keio was becoming active in preparing the environment for them. Facilities like liquid helium equipment necessary for superconductivity research began to be set up at Yagami, and I became able to conduct experiments in the Yagami laboratory without having to commute to the Electrotechnical Laboratory (ETL), which was a collaborative research partner.

──It hadn't been that long since the Faculty of Engineering moved from Koganei to Yagami, so that kind of atmosphere existed.

Differences Between Corporate and University Research

──Currently, your work involves various areas such as research, education, administration, and social contribution. How do you spend your time?

Hatano

I believe in a hands-on approach and love talking and experimenting with students, but I can't take enough time for it, which causes stress. Taking the pandemic as an opportunity, I built an autonomous knowledge-sharing system in real-time, but I truly feel that nothing beats face-to-face interaction for student guidance. On the other hand, as you pointed out, my time is being taken up by research projects, academic society management, and administrative work, which are also important.

I expected university professors to be free and have time to think deeply, but no, everyone is super busy (laughs). That situation is worsening year by year, and I feel it hinders creative research and education.

In education, I served as a program coordinator for the "Program for Leading Graduate Schools" and focused on fostering doctoral students required by global society and corporations. Students who received this education are now active worldwide. However, the receiving side of doctoral talent—from traditional companies to startups and even public sectors including ministries—is still insufficiently prepared, with issues such as not adding a premium to doctoral talent. On the other hand, I think most Japanese companies are in the stage of transitioning from traditional membership-based employment to job-based employment, so I think now is a good opportunity to change that.

However, compared to students abroad, Japanese students seem to show weakness in the ability to construct logic and think through things, as well as the ability to verbalize them. As a result, I feel they are unable to demonstrate leadership. Companies should also clearly demand those requirements for doctoral students.

Meanwhile, the decline in the ratio of basic research in companies and the decline in research capability itself are also considered problems. Certainly, when I was in a company, especially in the semiconductor field, industry and academia teamed up, and companies led the way.

Even in the Japan Society of Applied Physics, corporate members participate a lot in lectures and such, but presentations are decreasing, which I find regrettable. Possible reasons for this include a focus on immediate profits due to a short-term perspective in corporate activities, stricter compliance, and the progress of oligopolies in various fields, which has weakened the motivation to keep technology open. However, in the medium to long term, I believe that R&D investment has high profit and leads directly to the strengthening of human resources and corporate stamina. Furthermore, companies are now required to have social responsibilities such as ESG in addition to profits, so I expect the importance of universities and academic societies to increase.

──There used to be many corporate basic research laboratories, but many were closed down after the bubble burst.

Hatano

It is important for industry, government, and academia to team up to foster the next generation of talent, but I think there is a mismatch in job-hunting activities. Current job hunting starts as soon as students enter the first year of their master's program, and I am disappointed, wondering if companies don't expect anything from university education.

If that were done after the master's thesis review in the second year, companies would be able to judge a person's character properly, and the number of students advancing to Doctoral Programs would surely increase. I think it is extremely important for the country to nurture the fun of research and the motivation to deepen research further. Furthermore, I would like to see incentives given to students who have obtained a doctorate.

──What is regrettable compared to advanced Western countries is, as you said, that companies do not have expectations for university education. Furthermore, while they used to have considerable power to develop people within the company, now they say they don't have the leeway, so please do it at the university. If that's the case, I wish they wouldn't interfere with recruitment activities while students are still in school.

You mentioned you are also involved in the Leading Graduate Schools; how are the students who went abroad?

Hatano

Even spending just three months abroad stimulates them and changes them completely. After all, there seem to be great harvests in the first experience of the outside world. In my program specifically, I created opportunities to stay not only at overseas universities but also at companies. They tell me about their impressions in those places, such as how all manager-class employees at a German chemical manufacturer have doctorates, or how an Indian company is expanding business into Africa by utilizing its geography. The first graduates are now 35 or 36 years old and are active as core members both domestically and internationally.

The Colors of Tokyo Tech and Keio

──What differences do you feel exist in the places where Keio graduates and Tokyo Tech graduates are active?

Hatano

The colors are different, aren't they? Tokyo Tech students are serious and bright. They are good at math, have excellent logical thinking skills, and their eyes shine when asked to solve equations. I think Tokyo Tech graduates play important roles in key areas that support advanced technology.

On the other hand, I think Keio students are better at identifying global issues, expressing them, solving them as a team, designing, and creating new businesses. To make up for that, Tokyo Tech is focusing on liberal arts education. On the morning I arrived at Tokyo Tech, the students I shared an elevator with didn't even say hello and just got off first. I was surprised because that would never happen at Keio. When I told a Tokyo Tech professor, I was even more surprised when they said, "Forcing greetings is academic harassment."

Since Keio has strong connections between seniors and juniors, such as the Mita-kai, I think students have many opportunities to learn about what is happening in the world from their seniors.

──Is that so? However, that varies quite a bit depending on the individual. Conversely, what are the good points of Tokyo Tech?

Hatano

The students are truly humble and sincere. What kind of talent will be required in the future? According to a top executive at Mitsui & Co., a small number of elite generalists is fine, and "otaku-like" talent who excel in a certain ability is necessary. I smiled and said, "If that's the case, Tokyo Tech students will be in high demand" (laughs).

──How many female faculty members are there now?

Hatano

I was actually the first female faculty member in the Faculty of Engineering. I was surprised when I joined Tokyo Tech from a company and was told I was the first woman in the Faculty of Engineering. I felt that the world of academia was lagging behind. Although the number is gradually increasing, there are still few female students in electrical and electronic engineering.

──Do you think there is a relationship between an increase in female faculty and an increase in female students?

Hatano

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If anything, I might expect too much from female students and might be stricter with them instead.

As President of the Japan Society of Applied Physics

──In your position as the president of an academic society, do you find that you are often called upon because you are a woman?

Hatano

I think there are downsides where one is appointed to improve the female ratio and becomes busy because they are a woman. However, I want to firmly play the role of a "stepping stone" for the success of the next generation of women.

──Does having women in the Japan Society of Applied Physics make discussions more active?

Hatano

The Japan Society of Applied Physics is academically interdisciplinary, and industry-government-academia collaboration is progressing, so it has a DNA that emphasizes diversity. Therefore, I am able to serve as president in a natural way.

However, female members are still few. Not limited to women, the promotion of diversity and inclusion and cross-disciplinary discussions are the driving forces for creating new value, and unless we derive optimal solutions from the clash of diversity, we cannot expect sustainability or development.

Of the approximately 20,000 members, one-third are corporate members, one-third are academia, and one-third are students. To increase female and overseas members, we are implementing measures to have senior members play an active role.

──How was it serving as president?

Hatano

Since taking office, we were hit by the COVID-19 pandemic, and I went back to the basics of what the role of a public interest incorporated association should be. However, I see it as an opportunity for transformation. Targeting social issues such as the new coronavirus and carbon neutrality, I encouraged cross-cutting discussions. I hope it will be useful for the integration and emergence of knowledge, improvement of scientific literacy, and the choice of science career paths for elementary, junior high, and high school students.

For lectures, we also prepared formats according to situations and needs, such as hybrid online and face-to-face, and virtual reality. Also, international co-creation among academic societies is increasing in importance as political and economic fragmentation progresses. Utilizing online platforms, we frequently hold Roundtables for physics-related academic societies worldwide. Surprisingly, the concerns are the same.

Expectations for Students

──How do you feel about the students?

Hatano

Current students are called Generation Z, and I have great expectations for them. Gen Z emphasizes individuality and being true to oneself, has high awareness of the environment and social contribution, and naturally recognizes that diversity is important. Perhaps they are also a generation that was forced to be philosophical, looking from afar at the buoyant times before the bubble, the Lehman shock, and the economic downturn.

From now on, I expect them to realize the development from the fusion of physical/cyber space to a system where human inner space is highly integrated, enriching the spirit and society. Also, ways of working will change, and side jobs will increase. I myself am currently cross-appointed between Tokyo Tech and a National Research and Development Agency called QST (National Institutes for Quantum Science and Technology).

Therefore, I keep repeating, "Go to a doctoral program, see the world, and have a strength that is second to none."

──What about fostering entrepreneurs?

Hatano

The number of students getting jobs at startups has increased. However, I think it's fewer than Keio students. There is also the influence of seniors and families. There are master's students who are starting to say they want to start a business with their current research theme, so I have high expectations. In the future, Japan's position in the international community and what we should live for as our axis will be something to think about.

──Japanese people don't understand Japan's values and strengths well. People call it a small island nation, but if you place Kyushu over Spain on a map, Hokkaido reaches Denmark. Even though it's a country with that much breadth, in the end, everything is concentrated in Tokyo. I hope we can be conscious of diversity and utilize the strengths of each region.

Hatano

We should shuffle more within Japan. Since remote work has progressed, I think that possibility exists.

──In any case, as long as there is unipolar concentration in Tokyo, regional areas will continue to dwindle.

Hatano

I also want to spread research on quantum sensors and the development of quantum talent. I am envisioning a research ecosystem that is easy for anyone to enter and functions flexibly throughout the country.

At Keio, I was surprised that President Kohei Itoh built the cutting-edge quantum computer research base "IBM Q Hub" early on. I am impressed because he has the original ideas and execution power unique to President Itoh, as well as a strong global network based on trust, to make quantum computers useful for society through co-creation with companies in various industries.

Positively Supporting Female Researchers

──Teaching at Tokyo Tech, are there things you feel yourself that you were indeed raised at Keio?

Hatano

I sometimes give students homework that requires comprehensive knowledge to think for themselves, and I think this kind of education is something I learned at Keio. Professor Kohei Ohnishi (currently Professor Emeritus), who helped me at the Science Council of Japan, conducts original research that fuses the different fields of electricity, machinery, and information. I think it's because of Keio that one can go beyond their own field and be useful to society.

──I think Keio is an environment where it's easy to have the mindset of carving out a field for oneself.

Hatano

Exactly as you say.

──What are your children doing?

Hatano

My eldest daughter is in the legal profession. My second daughter graduated from Keio's Faculty of Letters and is at an airline. It seems the power of the Keio network is great even after graduation.

──So, neither of them has any connection to the science and engineering fields.

Hatano

Not at all. It's terrible, isn't it? (laughs). I was absent most of the time doing experiments even on Saturdays and Sundays, so they said they didn't want to be like that. There were things like that, but I want to continue to support female researchers so they can be even more active and so that the number of women aiming to be researchers increases.

──We look forward to your continued success. Thank you very much for today.

(Recorded on January 21, 2022, at Mita Campus)

*Affiliations and titles are as of the time of publication.