Roundtable Discussion: The Changing Library—Knowledge Hubs Today

Thank you all for gathering today to discuss the theme of "Considering Public Libraries."

Public libraries are currently in the midst of significant change, and social interest in them is growing. In addition to the diversification of management models through the introduction of the designated manager system, represented by the TSUTAYA Library, we are also seeing ongoing criticism of libraries as "free rental bookshops," a decline in reading and the shrinking of the bookstore and publishing industries, and the spread of the internet and e-books. In light of these factors, I would like to discuss how these knowledge hubs for citizens will change.

First, last autumn, Mr. Matsui, you proposed a "suspension of paperback lending by libraries" at the All-Japan Library Conference in Tokyo (hosted by the Japan Library Association), which caused a huge stir. Newspapers reported on this proposal, and it seems there was a considerable reaction from general readers as well.

Also, in October of last year, a public opinion poll on reading conducted by the Yomiuri Shimbun during National Book Week (published in the paper on October 31, 2017) asked about book purchasing by public libraries. The results showed that 61% of respondents believed it was "better to stock a diverse range of books, even if it means people have to wait a long time to borrow them," while 29% thought it was "better to purchase many copies of popular books so that people do not have to wait a long time to borrow them." It seems about 60% of people think it's better to stock a variety of books rather than buying specific popular ones.

On this issue, I'd like to ask Mr. Matsui to speak first.

This proposal to "suspend paperback lending by libraries" is a statement from the representative director of a single publishing company; I am not representing the Japan Book Publishers Association or any similar body. However, as I mentioned at the library conference last autumn, for literary publishers, paperbacks are indeed a lifeline. For example, at Bungeishunju, over 30% of our total profit actually comes from paperbacks. The much-talked-about "Shukan Bunshun" and "Bungeishunju" each account for only about ten-something percent of our overall profit. So, paperbacks are an overwhelming pillar of our revenue.

Literary magazines hardly sell anymore. The literary fiction magazine "Bungakukai" and the popular fiction magazine "All Yomimono" together generate a deficit of over 300 million yen annually. But these magazines are indispensable for discovering and nurturing writers.

Many people might think that we make a lot of money when these works become hardcover books, but nearly 80% of hardcover books are also unprofitable. It's after this stage that they become paperbacks. Paperbacks are inexpensive and easy to pick up. Also, bookstores keep them on the shelves for a long time. There are clearly young people who wait for a book to be released in paperback before buying it. That's why the initial print run is an order of magnitude different when it becomes a paperback.

For a hardcover, a literary fiction work might have a print run of 4,000 to 5,000 copies. However, when it becomes a paperback, the initial print run is at least ten-something thousand copies. This is the mechanism through which we recoup our profits. Therefore, having paperbacks lent out in large quantities causes considerable damage to literary publishers.

This is a major blow not only to publishers but to authors as well.

I see, so the impact is quite significant.

However, I want to make it clear that even among paperbacks, the situation is completely different depending on the publisher. Paperbacks from companies like Shinchosha, us, or Futabasha are centered on literary works, especially new releases. But something like Iwanami Bunko is completely different; it's a line of classic paperbacks. Academic paperback lines are also in a different category, so libraries probably don't count them as "paperbacks" in the same way.

The paperbacks from which we generate revenue are the ones that are currently active, the ones currently popular in bookstores. Classic paperbacks that were released more than 10 years ago are treated completely differently. What I am asking is for a grace period on the lending of paperbacks that are currently popular and selling in bookstores.

Now I'd like to ask the librarians. Ms. Sakai and Mr. Yoshii, when the criticism that libraries are "free rental bookshops" emerged a few years ago, how did you in the library field perceive it?

In libraries, performance is often evaluated by circulation numbers, so there's a tendency to think that reporting higher numbers means the library is fulfilling its mission. However, buying multiple copies of bestsellers means that in the long run, you end up with a lot of stock that will eventually stop being borrowed, so there has to be some degree of control over that.

Regarding paperbacks, they would probably be checked out if we stocked them, but at the Meguro City libraries where I worked, we generally didn't purchase them, opting for the hardcover instead. However, if someone who finished reading a book donated it, saying "I'd like to give this to you," we would gratefully accept it and lend it out.

We would, of course, purchase books that were originally published as paperbacks, such as Kobunsha's "Koten Shin'yaku Bunko" series, or newly written paperbacks for collection purposes. But for books that had a hardcover release, we didn't purchase the paperback unless the content was significantly different.

Is that so? That's wonderful to hear (laughs).

In my case, it's not that we don't buy paperbacks, but it's usually a pattern of doing so out of necessity when the original hardcover is out of print and no longer available. However, the library where I was director was for adults, with many elderly patrons. As older people develop presbyopia, reading paperbacks becomes quite difficult, so they tend to pick up large-print books, and the small text of paperbacks makes them hard to handle. But we also have patrons who say, "But paperbacks are so easy to carry."

Both the statement by Shinchosha's president Takanobu Sato in 2015 and Mr. Matsui's recent remarks are things that, as someone working in the field, I can say, "Yes, I understand." However, after such statements are made, patrons come and ask, "What, are you not buying paperbacks anymore?" or "Are you going to put a moratorium on lending books?"

We respond by saying, "No, we won't be doing anything like that suddenly," but the patrons who come to the library seem concerned. Many of our users are elderly, so I also think it must be tough for them living on a pension, and that's where it gets difficult.

Overall, is it safe to say that paperbacks are popular in libraries?

I think so. If we accept one donated paperback, reservations will concentrate on that single paperback, even if there are five copies of the same hardcover book available.

Is that because they are handy and convenient to carry for reading on the train during a commute to work or school?

They must be convenient for reading on the train.

In that case, isn't this an urban issue? That is, it's convenient for people who commute by train, but the situation might be different in regional areas.

That's right. In fact, when I talk about this with people from regional libraries, it doesn't seem to resonate with them.

Ah, I see. Ms. Igaya, you've traveled around the country for your reporting. Could you please tell us about the situation?

The biggest difference between regional and urban areas is the number of bookstores. Urban areas have many bookstores, so there is certainly an aspect of competition when libraries lend out paperbacks. However, in regional areas, the lack of bookstores in some municipalities has become a problem. In such municipalities, the library is the only place where people first encounter books. Therefore, from the long-term perspective of cultivating quality readers, it can be said that regional libraries must have a diverse selection, including paperbacks.

However, I'm caught in the middle on this issue (laughs). I write books myself, and I've also interviewed Mr. Matsui, so I understand the situation of publishers and authors. Book sales are tough right now, and especially for small bookstores, magazines, which were once a mainstay, are not selling at all.

That's right.

In that case, I feel that paperbacks and manga are what remain as the pillars of bookstore revenue. In Uehara, Shibuya Ward, where I used to live, there was a bookstore called Kofuku Shobo. It was loved by the local community for 40 years and was famous as Mariko Hayashi's local bookstore. I used to go there too, but this February, it finally closed its doors.

When I spoke with the owner, he said that magazine sales had dropped, and the last few years had been really tough. This bookstore used to generate revenue from magazines and balance its books by stocking high-quality academic and literary books, even if they didn't sell much. But once the magazines failed, they could no longer stock good books. I hear about other bookstores like that finally going out of business.

If bookstores struggle, publishers will also struggle, and if that leads to a vicious cycle where costly, high-quality books are not produced, I think it will affect library collections as well. I'm not saying that "books that can be made without much time and effort and only sell for a moment" are bad, but if that's all there is, I don't think libraries can fulfill their original role.

I understand very well that paperback sales are extremely important for publishers, bookstores, and authors.

That being said, if libraries were to stop lending paperbacks, would readers start buying more of them?

I don't think it's so simple that if public libraries stopped lending paperbacks, paperback sales would immediately recover.

However, the problem is the mindset among the general public that "libraries have lots of paperbacks and will lend them out." What I'm saying is, "Please buy things like paperbacks at your local bookstore." If even those can be borrowed from the library, I fear that the certain order of coexistence among bookstores, libraries, publishers, and readers will collapse.

Could you elaborate a little more on that mindset?

I feel that the landscape of libraries has changed considerably from what it used to be. When I was a child, it was undoubtedly the public library where I awakened to the joy of books. My family ran a busy shop, so on Saturdays and Sundays, my parents would take me to the library and just leave me there.

When I got to university, how did I use the library? In my fourth year of university, a book called "Nihon no Seishin Kantei" (Psychiatric Assessment in Japan) (1973) was published by Misuzu Shobo, but it cost 6,000 yen. A fourth-year university student nearly 50 years ago could never afford that. The library had materials like that, books that were impossible for me to buy. So, I truly devoured books at the library. That's what I thought a library was, but I feel that scene has been lost now.

The reason magazine sales have plummeted so much is definitely the spread of smartphones. And with the internet, a mindset of "free" and "no cost" has become rampant. Now everyone thinks they can get information for free. I want libraries to put a stop to that. If they brazenly lend out even paperbacks in large quantities, no one will buy books anymore. My concern is that this mindset will lead to everything becoming free.

I think you're right that the library landscape has changed, but Ms. Sakai and Mr. Yoshii, as people who have worked on the front lines, how do you see it?

When you're in the field, the change is gradual, so it's hard to grasp. I think old libraries used to be places where only people who loved books would go, even though the books were all somewhat old. Even for entertainment novels, you could only find ones that had been published for a while, but now people expect the same selection as a bookstore.

When we purchase a new release, it's immediately checked out by people who have reserved it. Everyone is checking for new books. Patrons will say, "There are no new books on the library shelves, please display them like a bookstore." And we think, "But we are buying them..."

But if libraries buy new books in response to demand, that's pandering to the masses, isn't it? Doesn't that raise the question of what their true role is?

But depending on the library, they feel they have to respond to user requests and needs.

To a certain extent, yes.

So they inevitably end up buying multiple copies of bestsellers and the like.

But I think it's a matter of balance. You can't completely ignore requests and needs, but this leads to pressure on private businesses. I fundamentally believe that public libraries, which are funded by taxes, cannot do that.

Mr. Yoshii, what do you think?

You can make reservations online now. For example, when Naoki Matayoshi's "Hibana" was released as a hardcover, many people reserved it online. But the "Bungakukai" magazine, which the library had already purchased, had no reservations at all.

When I'd say, "You can also read it in 'Bungakukai'," they'd be like, "Oh, is that so?" Everyone just searches for "Hibana" and the reservations all concentrate there. It was a bit disappointing, as I felt that the number of people who know about literary fiction magazines is dwindling.

Actually, most literary fiction hardcovers can be published thanks to libraries.

When an author wins the Akutagawa Prize, libraries will properly purchase their second and third works as reference material. So, for a print run of only 5,000 or 6,000 copies, libraries across the country will buy 1,500, sometimes even 2,000 copies. Without this, we couldn't publish literary fiction hardcovers.

So, we are being helped in some ways, and I believe that coexistence and mutual prosperity are entirely possible.

Regarding the large number of online reservations, for popular books, there can be a waiting list of dozens, or in some cases, over 100 people, right? I always think that by the time it's that 100th person's turn, their enthusiasm has probably cooled (laughs).

They say you have to wait six months, or even a year.

In that case, I wish libraries would take a firm stance and say, "We only accept reservations up to the 10th person. If you can't wait, please buy it at a bookstore," and then be able to recommend a local bookstore. In fact, the Chiyoda Library in Chiyoda Ward offers a service where if a book is checked out, they will search for it online at new and used bookstores in the local Jinbocho area and tell you, "You can find a copy in stock here."

I often talk about the need for "library literacy" on the part of users, and I think it's important for libraries to take a firm stance to improve how users use libraries and their awareness.

In the May 2007 issue of "Toshokan Zasshi," the journal of the Japan Library Association, an example from the Kawasaki City Library is cited.

There, they had a rule to buy an additional copy of a book once it had more than 10 requests. However, when they started accepting reservations online, they were flooded with a tremendous number of reservations. Lily Franky's "Tokyo Tower" received an incredible 1,730 reservation requests. Realizing this would become a huge problem, the Kawasaki City Library decided, "We will set a limit. Even if there are 10 reservations, we will not purchase any more copies."

As for the public's reaction, surprisingly, almost no one complained. Today's reservations are just a click on a screen, right?

There's no cancellation fee if you make a reservation and don't pick it up. So people tend to reserve things just in case.

But books, not just paperbacks, are products sold with a price tag. If you want to obtain one, you should have to "pay with money or pay with time." Paying with money means buying it at a bookstore. Paying with time means waiting your turn if there are many requests at the library. It's only natural for people who don't want to pay money to wait, even if it's for two or three years. It's truly a case of "time is money."

That's right. This is a famous quote from President Sato of Shinchosha, but that's why for public services, "a little inconvenience is just right." If services become too convenient and too accommodating, everyone becomes selfish.

Since Mr. Matsui has stirred the pot on this issue, while it hasn't led to an immediate halt in paperback lending, I feel it has had the effect of making those in the field pause and think, "This is something we need to consider."

The library landscape has changed, and the way libraries are used has also changed. One concrete example that supports this is the introduction of the designated manager system. The TSUTAYA Library also became quite a topic of conversation for a while. In fact, Mr. Yoshii is also part of a private company that acts as a designated manager.

First, I'd like to ask Ms. Sakai, who was at a directly-managed library, how she perceived the introduction of the designated manager system to libraries.

Meguro City operated its libraries directly for a very long time, and even now it's in the form of outsourcing. A city employee is assigned as the library director, and outsourced staff work at the actual service counters.

I feel that the companies that undertake outsourcing and designated management have a good pool of talent. In the first year of outsourcing, they send in capable people, and you think, "We're in good hands." Then, before you know it, that person has gone off to launch a designated management project (laughs). It seems that once they are trained to a certain level through outsourcing, they are transferred to the designated management side.

With direct management, there is a lack of hunger because job security is guaranteed, but the advantage of direct management is consistency. We can review what we set out to do 10 years ago and then try something new, making course corrections through long-term planning. The history of why we started something with a certain philosophy is passed down and accumulated. I think that is a strength of direct management.

From the designated management side, how is it?

I was the director of a library in Edogawa City for five years, and before that, I was in Shinjuku City for about three years. Each municipality has a different scope for what designated managers are allowed to do. In both Shinjuku and Edogawa, I was given a relatively free hand to "do as you like."

For example, when I consulted with Edogawa City about bringing in the robot "Pepper" at our company's expense, they said, "If your company is covering the cost, please go ahead and place it," and so we installed Pepper.

Also, the city told us, "The Tokyo Olympics are approaching, so please do something at the library to build excitement." The things related to the library are limited, but we asked people who had participated in the Olympics to "please recommend some books," and we created an exhibition. Another project I did was "Books that Publishing Company Presidents Recommend to Be Passed Down in Libraries," for which I also received a response from Mr. Matsui.

Oh, that's right. I did respond to that.

Yes, that project was me (laughs). In that way, I was able to do what I wanted to do, more or less.

Are such projects possible because it's a designated management system?

Under direct management, it's not impossible, but the hurdles are quite high.

Isn't it difficult to get approval?

That's right. You have to explain the necessity and get them to agree.

With designated management, you can promote yourselves by saying, "Our company can do these kinds of things at the library," showcasing innovative project ideas and know-how that the local government doesn't have, right?

But what I just mentioned was just something I happened to try with my staff; it wasn't a company-wide initiative.

The designated manager system itself has been in place for 15 years now. In practice, it has become quite widespread, and a debate that blindly opposes it is no longer realistic. Municipalities are facing concrete challenges on how to operate libraries effectively under the designated manager system, and I think the emergence of the TSUTAYA Library was one of the various trends in that context.

That was an extreme example, where CCC (Culture Convenience Club) brought in its own know-how and broke down the history and methods that libraries had protected. Lifestyle classifications, stylish bookshelves, and so on. They really created a library that was like a direct transplant of the T-SITE in Daikanyama, Shibuya Ward, Tokyo.

So, how did users view it? It certainly had drawing power. However, the real question is whether that drawing power is sustainable. Considering the role of a library, I don't think it's a matter of "the contract changes every five years, so we can just contract with whoever can create the next trendy library."

Therefore, the municipal government needs to hold the reins firmly and think about what kind of library they want to create with their citizens. I believe they need to consider the use of the designated manager system not just within a three- or five-year scope, but with a vision that looks 10 or 20 years ahead.

However, there are not many municipalities that have such a long-term vision. In March of this year (2018), the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications investigated and reported on the adoption rate of designated managers in various public facilities (Survey on the Status of Local Government Service Reform Initiatives). Looking at it, libraries actually have the lowest adoption rate.

For example, in designated cities, the highest rates are for long-term care support centers and special nursing homes for the elderly. These are close to 100%. Others, like accommodation and recreation facilities, as well as exhibition and trade fair facilities, exceed 90%. In contrast, the adoption rate for libraries is 23.5%.

When it comes to cities, towns, and villages, the lowest is public beaches at 12.6%. Next is public housing at 13.3%. The next lowest is libraries at 17.4%. Conversely, more than half of nursing homes, long-term care support centers, and health and welfare centers have adopted the system.

Looking at these numbers alone, it seems to have become clear after 15 years that the designated manager system is not a good fit for libraries.

In Edogawa City, too, there is a library directors' meeting where designated manager operators gather. At these meetings, the libraries are seated at the end, and most of the attendees are from cultural facilities, sports facilities, and accommodation facilities. Although there are 12 libraries in the city, I feel that the adoption of the system is overwhelmingly more advanced in other facilities.

In welfare-related fields, which have become the domain of professionals like helpers and care managers, it may have become difficult for civil servants to go into the field and do the work.

On the other hand, in the case of libraries, some municipalities have hired staff specifically for librarian positions to be assigned to libraries. If a library is placed under a designated manager, the municipality is forced to reassign the staff they hired as librarians to other jobs, which may make it difficult for some municipalities to change course.

Libraries require management skills and the ability to envision what kind of services and collections to build for the local residents in the future, so I think the designated manager system is not a good fit.

The designated manager system itself is probably an unavoidable trend of the times. It's clear that the era of civil servants directly managing everything is over. I feel that the introduction of designated management into the library world has served as a considerable wake-up call for directly-managed libraries as well. By seeing what the private sector is doing, I think they have started to think about what they, as directly-managed entities, can do.

In that sense, I think the introduction of the designated manager system had a stimulating effect. Various media outlets covered it, and the number of municipal heads who took an interest in libraries increased.

Soichi Kikuchi, who was the manager of Ikebukuro Libro, has now become the head of the library division at the Hibiya Library and Museum. Among bookstores, Ikebukuro Libro was of a considerably high level and caliber, so I think it will become a rather interesting library in terms of book selection as well.

In the end, most people only use the library in their own town, so they are surprisingly unaware of what libraries in other towns are like. That's why when the TSUTAYA Library was covered so extensively by the national media, voices inevitably arose saying, "We want a library like that in our municipality too."

I don't know if it's the mayor, a council member, or the citizens, but I do feel that there is an increasing number of libraries that are being customized to their region, with cafes being built when a new library is constructed, as a reflection of this.

On the other hand, I think the trend of municipal finances becoming tighter due to the declining birthrate and aging population, making it impossible to maintain conventional administrative services, will be unavoidable in the future. In that context, I am concerned about how long directly-managed libraries, which are considered "expensive," can be maintained. I suspect it will become particularly difficult for small municipalities in rural areas.

The way public libraries are used has also changed considerably. There is the reality of baby boomers who have retired and are seeking a place for themselves in the library.

When you read the book "Teinengo" (After Retirement) (by Arata Kusunoki, Chuko Shinsho, 2017), which was quite popular as a shinsho (new book format), you'll find a headline that says, "Skirmishes in the Library." It describes how elderly people after retirement get into daily squabbles over that day's newspaper (laughs).

That's it. What retired elderly people want to read most are historical novels originally written for paperback, and these are coming out one after another now. The kind represented by Yasuhide Saeki. Retired people are the readers of these books.

When a paperback comes out, it sells like hotcakes. But if it's put in the library, they will flock to it, so I think the impact is considerable. Mr. Saeki has several series of works, you know.

In fact, in our world, we call the sales of these newly written historical paperbacks "initial velocity," and they sell at a tremendous speed in one or two months. That's why I also proposed, "Please wait three months before lending out" for newly written historical paperbacks and light novels.

Magazines, it seems, are treated as "for in-library use only" and are not lent out until the next issue is released. In the same way, I'm asking if you could grant a grace period for lending items that sell very quickly, such as historical novels or light novels, by treating them as for in-library use only.

I see. In any case, the use by this senior demographic is conspicuous.

Also, compared to the libraries Mr. Matsui used when he was young, mothers with small children also come now. When you think about those people, I think there's also the circumstance that if you don't make the library bright and cheerful with a bookstore-like colorfulness, instead of just old books, many people won't come.

It's true that as a library, if you don't create attractive shelves and a beautiful space to draw in a large number of residents, the municipality will judge it as an unnecessary facility, and the budget will be further reduced, causing it to shrink even more.

Then there's studying for middle and high school students. Compared to the past, public libraries have become much more accommodating of people just using the space.

That's right. Especially in urban areas where the rate of dual-income households is high, the role of the library as a place to watch over children after school and support child-rearing in the community is now in demand, so I feel that spaces for middle and high school students in libraries are increasing.

But they don't use the library's books much. It's mostly for studying and chatting with friends during breaks. It's really just a place to be.

A characteristic phenomenon I've noticed while visiting libraries across the country is the widespread adoption of eraser dust collectors in reading areas.

Why is that? Because when high school and middle school students study, they produce eraser dust. You didn't see these much in the past. Now they are spreading all over the country, and at a certain city library in Niigata Prefecture, they have thoughtfully provided a fine brush at each reading seat for sweeping away the dust (laughs).

Furthermore, the other day at a city library in Miyazaki Prefecture, I saw that the dust collector had words of encouragement for students studying for exams written on it, like "Take a short break when you're tired" and "Refresh with a drink." This atmosphere of supporting studying students is gradually spreading to libraries nationwide.

I think high school students go there to study, but don't they pick up a book on the shelves during a break and think, "Oh, this is interesting"?

There's certainly a possibility they might read, but overall, it's rare.

Is that so? I used to be like that (laughs).

It's for studying or meeting friends. Places like fast-food restaurants cost money. At the library, they won't get yelled at for staying for hours for free, and if they tell their family, "I'm going to the library," it's okay even if they're a little late, so it's an easy place for kids to go.

What concerns me is that university libraries are changing considerably, responding to active learning and the needs of students to make them easier to use.

For example, the "Learning Commons" facility at Doshisha University has an innovative design, such as diner-style seating. The reason for this is that students have been studying in family restaurants since their middle and high school days, so they feel comfortable in such a space. It's also designed to be highly convenient in other ways, and university librarians are dispatched to this facility.

I worry whether those who have studied in such uniquely evolved spaces will use today's public libraries after they graduate. I feel a large generational gap is emerging.

Another symbolic change is the handling of drinks. In the past, you couldn't drink in the library because the books might get wet, but now the majority of libraries allow drinks to be brought in freely. Most public and university libraries are okay with bringing in things like plastic bottles.

But no matter how much we respond to needs, I believe we must not change the stance of providing services that are unique to a public, tax-funded institution.

With the widespread dissemination of information via the internet, in what direction will "reading" change from now on? And what role should public libraries play in that context? I would like you to discuss these points.

It's true that the disposable time for print media is definitely decreasing. Especially since the advent of smartphones, people are looking at text, but they are spending a lot of time on social media rather than on information disseminated by the media. Time is now being taken up by this kind of communication. This is especially true for the younger generation.

Printed books are certainly wonderful, but compared to digital information, they cannot be updated, and for things that are moving in real time, the information tends to be slightly delayed. On the other hand, when digital information is viewed on a device, it has lower browsability compared to print media, and the opportunities to connect information and think are reduced. Even for the same information, I think a two-way development that utilizes the characteristics of paper while also putting it on digital platforms is absolutely necessary.

And the library side must also fundamentally think about how to protect the culture of books and reading. For example, I once interviewed librarians and authors at the Finnish Embassy, and I heard that in Finland, when a book is borrowed from a library, the author is paid 15 yen per book from the national treasury. They also mentioned that authors receive an average annual subsidy of 7,000 euros.

Of course, taxes are high in Finland, and the national system is completely different. Nevertheless, there is a mindset of valuing Finland's unique culture and authors. I think it's important for everyone in Japan to think about such things as well.

So, will "reading" continue to decline in the future?

The Curriculum Guidelines for elementary, middle, and high schools will be revised after a transition period. Within these, "inquiry-based learning (active learning)" is emphasized, and the importance of libraries and research-based learning is highlighted.

Also, just this April, the government approved the 4th "Basic Plan for the Promotion of Children's Reading Activities" by cabinet decision. Furthermore, morning reading sessions have become quite widespread nationwide.

Therefore, even if the amount of reading does not increase, I hope that the decline in the reading population can be halted at some point. Mr. Yoshii, you use both digital and analog media frequently, what do you think?

I read both print and digital, but when it comes to saving, I still think print is better. When I'm reading on an iPad or something, if the battery dies, I can't read anymore, so when I'm reading on the Shinkansen, for example, print is better. However, I'm 35 this year, and few people around me read literary books; they read more business books. As for literary fiction, the pattern is often to read it because it won the Akutagawa Prize, Naoki Prize, or Japan Booksellers' Award and became a topic of conversation, making it a good talking point for work. So, I think things will be quite tough from now on.

Many libraries also hold "Bibliobattles." There are quite a few young people who become interested through Bibliobattles and awaken to reading. So, I feel that if libraries, publishers, and bookstores cooperate to help people discover the joy of reading, there is still potential to be tapped.

You're absolutely right. Until now, publisher events have mostly been with bookstores, and they've been limited to things like book signings and talk shows. In short, publishers have only been taking the new books they want to sell to bookstores and having them signed. But libraries are doing all sorts of events, aren't they?

When I said, "The percentage of paperback lending at Arakawa Ward's libraries is high," someone from the Arakawa Ward library said they wanted to meet. I braced myself, thinking they were coming to protest (laughs), but they said, "Why don't we do something together?" They have an event space there that can hold 120 people.

Yes, they have an event space surrounded by picture books.

So, as part of the Akutagawa and Naoki Prize "Literature in Your Life" campaign, we arranged for Ira Ishida to appear. The events are spreading more widely than just in bookstores. I heard the reservations filled up in no time.

At bookstores, it's a practical matter of, "This book is out, so let's have a signing." Instead of that, I think we should be doing events that make people feel more connected, like "Writers are interesting, they're amazing," to get them interested in books and authors.

I think bookstores, publishers, and libraries should work together, and also involve schools. Even for libraries established by local governments, the management and operational models will need to change.

Another challenge is how to cultivate the "library literacy" I mentioned earlier. In compulsory education, we should not only teach how to use a library but also its role. We should also create opportunities for users to learn about the structure of the book world, how libraries, publishers, and bookstores operate.

The relationship between the Tottori Prefectural Library and local bookstores is said to be very good. There, the bookstore commercial association and the library jointly developed the "My Memorial Book Campaign," which encourages people to "donate a book to the library on a life anniversary."

Users are happy when a book they bought for a life anniversary is donated to the library, the bookstores are happy because the book is purchased through their commercial association, and the library is happy because its collection grows. Isn't it important to keep coming up with ideas like this that make all three parties happy?

As libraries begin to collaborate with bookstores and publishers, the crucial factor will be how librarians think. It's a problem if they are experts on books and knowledgeable about them, but have no interest in the state of their town or the mechanisms of local government.

Ms. Sakai and Mr. Yoshii, you both actually enrolled in the graduate program for working adults in Library and Information Science at Keio while you were active librarians. What are your thoughts on this kind of recurrent education, or "lifelong learning," for librarians?

I believe it is absolutely necessary. The reason I decided to study in the first place was that when I was a library director, I felt extremely frustrated because I couldn't properly explain the significance and purpose of what I was doing to my superiors and council members, saying, "We need this for this purpose."

I thought maybe I'd get a little smarter if I studied at graduate school (laughs). It's certainly difficult, but I believe recurrent education is necessary to acquire the language to explain what you are doing and what you want to do in the future.

In my case, I had only obtained my librarian certification as an undergraduate and went straight to work in a library after graduation, and I had a feeling that I wanted to study a bit more.

After actually studying, I realized that the way you develop a thesis and the way you advance your work in the field are the same.

In the case of the graduate program for working adults, people who work not only in public libraries but also in university libraries enroll. There are also people from school libraries and special libraries. In the sense of stimulating each other and broadening horizons, I imagine it was an extremely valuable experience.

I think the scope of a librarian's job is probably expanding greatly right now, and various roles are expected of them, such as providing a place to be, a place for child-rearing, or developing services seamlessly within a multi-purpose facility. I hope that while protecting the unchanging role of the librarian, they will also work with an eye on the trends of the times.

It's true that they may have to do many different things, but I think book selection is a key part of a professional librarian's role. I believe it is absolutely necessary to have a connoisseur in the library.

Conversely, if you have such a person, I think you might not have to focus solely on things like public services. With book purchasing budgets being cut more and more, it may be that outsourcing to the private sector becomes inevitable, but I think this is a time when a review of book selection is needed.

Bookstores also have fewer connoisseurs. In the past, there was always a connoisseur on the sales floor, and if they thought, "This book is a winner," they would place it in a good spot, but now it's hard to find such people.

You just mentioned book selection, but if a municipality has a clear vision to "nurture this kind of connoisseur," excellent librarians can be developed.

A local government might not go out of business even if it doesn't nurture such people. But I believe that's not how it should be. The reason friction arises with publishers and complaints come from residents is that there is no system in place to properly train professionals.

There are places that are known for "that library's book selection is amazing," right? Such places get highlighted, but originally, there should have been connoisseurs more universally. That's why coexistence and mutual prosperity with libraries were possible.

In that sense, when the TSUTAYA Library was covered so much by the mass media and the internet, book selection was seriously questioned, and a discussion about what kind of person can do real book selection gained some momentum. I wish that had been a catalyst for thinking about how to nurture proper librarians.

Thank you all very much for the wide-ranging discussion today.