Participant Profile
Sachika Ota
Other : Cake DesignerOther : Art EducatorFaculty of Policy Management GraduateGraduated from Keio University Faculty of Policy Management in 2002. Studied confectionery and art in both Japan and France, and obtained an MFA (Master of Fine Arts) from Kyoto University of the Arts. Author of books such as "Mysterious Pastry Recipes: Science Sweets."
Sachika Ota
Other : Cake DesignerOther : Art EducatorFaculty of Policy Management GraduateGraduated from Keio University Faculty of Policy Management in 2002. Studied confectionery and art in both Japan and France, and obtained an MFA (Master of Fine Arts) from Kyoto University of the Arts. Author of books such as "Mysterious Pastry Recipes: Science Sweets."
Sakiko Hirano
Other : Food EssayistFaculty of Law GraduateGraduated from Keio University Faculty of Law in 2014. Has kept a food diary since elementary school. Author of books such as "Al Dente Since Birth" and "Ajina Mise: Complete Edition."
Sakiko Hirano
Other : Food EssayistFaculty of Law GraduateGraduated from Keio University Faculty of Law in 2014. Has kept a food diary since elementary school. Author of books such as "Al Dente Since Birth" and "Ajina Mise: Complete Edition."
Takahiro Kunieda
Faculty of Policy Management ProfessorWhile involved in his specialized research in French literature and French language education, he explores the charms of sweets. Ph.D. in Letters. Author of books such as "Easy! French Grammar Learned by Ear."
Takahiro Kunieda
Faculty of Policy Management ProfessorWhile involved in his specialized research in French literature and French language education, he explores the charms of sweets. Ph.D. in Letters. Author of books such as "Easy! French Grammar Learned by Ear."
2021/11/25
There Are So Few Perfect Parfaits!
Even though we just say "parfait," there are actually so many varieties. This time, I thought I’d represent the Showa era and recalled the first time I ever ate one. My hometown is a rural town in Gifu Prefecture, but when I was in elementary school, a coffee shop opened nearby, and my family went there together. Having my first parfait there is my earliest memory of the experience.
In parfaits back then, underneath the ice cream and whipped cream, there was a rather garish green sauce—I think it was meant to be melon. Even something like that felt like a small luxury to a Showa-era elementary schooler.
As a cake designer, I create various sweets, focusing on custom-made cakes for weddings and manufacturer showcases. On the other hand, as an arts education specialist, I also engage in activities that nurture children's creativity through confectionery making.
Speaking of my childhood memories of parfaits, they had cornflakes at the base with whipped cream and vanilla ice cream on top. They were drizzled with chocolate sauce, which I think is the classic old-fashioned style, but at the time, I had an image of them as sweets from a dream world.
Recently, parfaits made by pastry chefs have been attracting a lot of attention. Just the other day, I was curious about the parfait by Yusuke Aoki, the Executive Pastry Chef at Four Seasons Hotel Tokyo at Otemachi, so I went to try it.
I usually write as a food essayist, do audio streaming, serve as the representative of a confectionery brand, and am involved in food-related projects in various ways. Among all foods, the parfait is one of the most difficult for me.
Professor Kunieda, I wanted to ask: the etymology of "parfait" is the same as the English word "perfect," isn't it?
That's right. In English, a parfait is "perfect."
Despite that, I've always felt that there are actually very few things you could truly call a "perfect" parfait.
The reason is that while a parfait has a lot of volume, its life as a food is incredibly short. Parfaits have an aspect of "momentary art"; if time passes, they turn into a soggy swamp...
Certainly, that beauty and the volume that's almost too much to finish are characteristics of the parfait.
I wonder, "What part of this is perfect?" (laughs). On the other hand, as Ms. Ota mentioned, there is also the delicate world where pastry chefs go through trial and error as if threading a needle. When I have a parfait made by a pastry chef, I feel that parfaits are, after all, a food where creators compete and show off their skills. I also like going to eat pastry chefs' parfaits; one that sticks in my memory is "EMME" in Omotesando.
The sweets at EMME are very popular, aren't they?
EMME is a shop run by a female pastry chef named Miya Enmeiji. What's amazing about her is that she has various analyses for every single menu item and finishes her sweets based on those.
Ms. Enmeiji says her ideal is a "drinkable parfait" that can be eaten smoothly even after a meal, and for that, temperature and moisture content are vital. On one hand, it's interesting that you can taste the creator's vision in a parfait.
But on the other hand, there's also the world of classical parfaits with things like Pocky sticking out of them. When I see those in rural coffee shops, I get a flutter of excitement and end up ordering one. Like, "Wow, why is there a Pocky in here?" (laughs). The fun of parfaits is that they can be enjoyed from all these different perspectives.
Just having a Pocky in there makes it feel like a good deal, doesn't it?
I wonder what that magic is all about.
"Dessert Comes After the Cheese"
I mentioned that the origin of the Japanese parfait is the French word "parfait," but if you order a parfait in a French restaurant, the parfait we know won't come out. The parfait rooted in Japan and the French parfait are fundamentally different things.
If you order a parfait in France, a sweet like a glacé comes out, right?
It's like an ice cream cake. However, even that isn't a menu item you see every day in French restaurants.
A friend living in Paris said it's something that appears on cafe menus when summer comes.
That's right. It's not quite a sorbet, but it's a cold dessert eaten during the hot season.
My image of a French parfait is fruit with something like crème anglaise poured over it.
Actually, what's closer to a Japanese parfait is something called a "coupe," which is served as dessert.
By the way, in a French-French dictionary, "dessert" is defined as "a sweet thing served at the end of a meal," but the interesting part is that it says "after the cheese." It even goes out of its way to specify "in France" regarding the "after the cheese" part. When I learned this, I thought it was a fascinating definition.
That's interesting. It means you have to eat in a proper order. The act of eating only dessert would be a departure from etiquette, then.
That's right. The word "dessert" carries the meaning of "something served at the end of a meal." So, French people don't go out specifically to eat a parfait; it's generally served as a dessert. When they want to eat a parfait, they go to a restaurant, enjoy a meal, and finally order a coupe as dessert.
Was the Parfait a Japanese-Made Dessert?
The coupe eaten in France is a dessert like an American sundae with lots of ice cream piled on. Compared to that, I feel the Japanese parfait is a unique thing that incorporates a characteristically Japanese worldview.
Japanese people are very good at incorporating seasonal scenes into sweets. I feel that the Japanese parfait was born by applying a Japanese-style approach to the French parfait or the American sundae.
The world of Japanese sweets often focuses on the four seasons. Is it part of Japanese confectionery culture to delicately add a sense of the season?
Certainly, even with wagashi (Japanese sweets), I've been told that the cross-section of a walnut kneaded into mochi is "a crow flying in the dawn sky." It makes me think humans are truly creatures of imagination, but does that kind of culture exist in France too?
I feel there aren't as many menus that focus on the four seasons as in Japan. Of course, it's a country rich in fruit, so figs and strawberries are often eaten as seasonal fruits, but I think it's rare to intentionally weave the four seasons into the cuisine itself.
I went to eat a parfait at the Hilltop Hotel in Ochanomizu for today, and since it's now September, the menu had changed to an autumn one using chestnuts. That kind of thematic approach isn't very common in France.
The Parfait Glass as a Restraint Device
I really resonated with Ms. Ota's point that the Japanese parfait has a different worldview from the American sundae. Because sundaes are arranged horizontally, aren't they?
Exactly.
Parfaits use a vertical glass. I think that's also very important. In a sense, there's a structure that doesn't leave freedom to the eater—it's self-centered in a good way.
I have a theory that shortcake absolutely tastes better when eaten from the "back" (laughs), and sundaes allow that kind of freedom for the eater, but with a parfait, you have no choice but to eat from the top. The parfait glass has a function of "binding the eater." That's why I thought it might be easier to create.
The parfait glass also supports the creator. For things without a container, like cakes or puddings, you have to make sure they hold their shape when the mold is removed, so the texture is somewhat predetermined. However, because of the parfait glass, you can put in both hard and soft things, and you can use sauces or olive oil, so in that sense, it's easy to make.
Since it's also based on the premise of being eaten immediately, you can include things that are okay to melt.
Yes, you can include ice cream.
A parfait really is momentary art.
Marriage Born from Information Overload
Ms. Ota, how do you get inspiration when making parfaits or sweets?
In my case, I usually have something I want to make first and aim for that, so I sometimes get inspiration from things completely unrelated to food, like works of art.
Parfaits have "modes" similar to fashion, and cuisine is also a world where trends change quickly. There are times when salty flavors are preferred, times when sweets gain popularity, or when soft textures become a boom. I often create while keeping trend changes in the back of my mind and combining them with my sources of inspiration.
I often feel that the experience of eating food is very raw, but compared to fashion, which is chosen based on the sensation of touching the skin or the silhouette when worn, taste is something you feel by putting it directly into your mouth. When starchy things enter, they gelatinize and create a smooth texture, and some ingredients fizz and bubble when mixed with saliva.
Furthermore, in the case of a parfait, there's visual beauty and entertainment elements like digging through it, and there's an amazing quality where various sensibilities intersect and enter the body. Since you can also combine fashion-like modal sensibilities there, I think there really is a power that seeks something perfect.
The experience of eating a parfait is something more than just having a meal.
Yusuke Aoki's parfait was filled with figs, but because the surface was caramelized (a cooking method where sugar is heated to create browning and aroma), it had a crispy, fragrant texture at first. But underneath, it was still raw fig, so the taste changed as I ate.
What surprised me was that it contained balsamic vinegar. Mr. Aoki's delicate attention to detail was infused into the flavor and texture.
So a faint acidity was added with balsamic vinegar.
It's an unexpected combination, but by "marrying" (harmonizing multiple flavors) with the sweetness of the fig in the mouth, it becomes incredibly delicious. I was truly amazed that he created it while thinking that far ahead about the change in taste when they come together in the mouth.
A parfait is truly a food with a high volume of information.
I have two ways of eating sweets: one is when I want to enjoy the creator's vision, like Ms. Ota. In those times, I focus on receiving various information, so I can't eat a parfait if I'm tired.
On the other hand, when I'm tired and want to be healed, I want to eat sweets with a limited number of flavors, like cream puffs or pudding. Simple things have the merit of being able to be eaten on one's own terms. My way of eating changes completely depending on the "personality" of the sweet.
The Sweetness of Ice Cream Depicted in "Madame Bovary"
Regarding the topic of taste, there is an interesting description in Flaubert's "Madame Bovary" where a character is shocked by ice cream.
The protagonist, a woman named Emma, marries a doctor. Emma is a romantic woman who had the illusion that marriage would make her dreams come true. However, after marrying, she begins to feel that something is wrong. Eventually, an aristocrat whom her husband treated invites the two of them to a party, and at that gathering, Emma tastes ice cream. At that moment, the sensation, coldness, and sweetness of the ice cream entering her mouth—just as Ms. Ota described—make her ecstatic. This becomes a very important scene at the beginning of the story, and by eating the ice cream, Emma realizes that this is the kind of world she was seeking. By touching the ice-cream-like world of the aristocrats, she becomes disillusioned with reality, and from there, her downfall begins...
That's scary, but it sounds interesting.
I really like this scene that sensually depicts "sweetness," and I always remember it when I eat something sweet.
Certainly, sweetness is a bit of a frightening world. Taste is different for every person and cannot be shared.
Salt is a necessity for humans, but sugar is a luxury, isn't it? It's not something absolutely necessary for survival, and in fact, it can sometimes ruin a person.
It's said that sugar was also a display of wealth. I've heard that court confectionery was meant to boast the hegemony of an empire the sweeter it was, and sweet things really feel like they have a sort of "extraterritoriality" of food. I was raised being told not to play with my food, but there's nothing you can play with more than sweet things.
That's true.
Some pastry chefs say, "Life is salty, but I'd be happy if I could create something that makes life feel sweet just for that moment." Sweet things have an idealistic side, like in "Madame Bovary," letting us escape reality and see dreams. But Madame Bovary eventually falls apart, so there's that scariness too.
So Emma realized the reality she was placed in.
Confronting the Story Infused into a Parfait
When you go to enjoy a pastry chef's creation, Hirano-san, do you expect more than just tasting a parfait? Do you also look to discover the creator's personality or connect with their charm?
That's right. Going out for a parfait is similar to having an omakase full-course meal; it's the opposite of ordering what you want to eat at a casual diner. It's more like savoring the creator's work, philosophy, and personality all as a single narrative.
I have those same expectations, and at the same time, it feels like going on a culinary adventure. I'm looking for new encounters—experiencing changes like acidity following sweetness is an adventure for me. It's also like retracing the pastry chef's own journey.
So there is the joy of discovering unexpected pairings and the creator's sense of taste.
I find myself anticipating unknown experiences that happen inside the mouth and within the body.
So you go seeking an experience where your sense of taste is expanded.
"Expansion of taste" is a great expression.
I can't help but fall in love with people who provide surprising culinary experiences. However, it's also something you can't fully receive unless you are full of energy yourself. When I eat a parfait, I really want to concentrate. I don't want to talk about romance or gossip.
You eat in silence?
It might be close to wanting to confront that narrative. I'm interested in how much story is packed into a single parfait.
For example, something from an old-fashioned coffee shop like a chocolate banana parfait feels like it only has the "Introduction" of a four-part story (laughs). In contrast, a parfait carefully thought out by a pastry chef has a flow: you taste the fruitiness in the "Introduction," followed by the ice cream in the "Development," then something with a grand worldview like herbs in the "Twist," and finally, how they wrap it all up. How much of that narrative structure they include varies completely depending on the pastry chef.
The Excessive Charm of the Swan Cream Puff
I go to eat parfaits alone, but how about you two?
I get a bit defensive. Ordering a parfait alone makes me nervous.
That's cute.
Are you okay with it, Hirano-san?
I'm generally fine with it.
To me, a parfait feels very special and requires courage. Because of the volume, it's not something I do on a whim; it's more like, "Today, I am going to eat a parfait!" and then heading out.
I'm sure some people go for a girls' night out vibe, but in those cases, the conversation becomes the main focus, doesn't it? Kunieda-sensei, what is your state of mind when you go to the Hilltop Hotel to eat a parfait?
I love the luxurious space surrounded by fine furnishings at the Coffee Parlor Hilltop in the Hilltop Hotel. Eating a parfait in a place like that makes me feel like today is truly a good day.
I used to work as a French language assistant at Athénée Français in Ochanomizu. At that time, there was a senior colleague who would take me out for drinks after work. Occasionally, they would take me to the bar at the Hilltop Hotel at the end of the night, and ever since then, I've gone back once in a while to savor that atmosphere. On those days, it's no exaggeration to say it feels like I'm dreaming.
The Coffee Parlor Hilltop menu has a Pudding à la Mode, doesn't it?
That Pudding à la Mode contains not only ice cream, whipped cream, and fruit, but also a swan-shaped cream puff. I had never seen a Pudding à la Mode like that before, so I was as shocked as when I first saw Marie Antoinette with a hairstyle that had a ship on top (laughs).
Is adding a swan cream puff also a part of Showa-era culture?
Both Pudding à la Mode and parfaits have a kind of charm that comes from their excessiveness.
There's something about the swan cream puff that makes you feel like, "You didn't have to go that far."
I wonder where that spirit of hospitality comes from.
The "Zero-Gravity Parfait" and the Aesthetics of the Cross-Section
I heard there is a sweet of yours called the "Zero-Gravity Parfait," Ota-san. What kind of creation is it?
The Zero-Gravity Parfait uses a visual effect where, by placing a lid on the parfait glass, the world looks divided between top and bottom when viewed from the side. To express the idea of having no concept of up or down, I placed a biscuit on the rim of the glass and decorated both the top and bottom of it with cream. The inside of the glass is hollow, creating an image where the cream looks like an inverted reflection.
The key point is using meringue for the cream, which allows the bottom cream to maintain its shape for a long time without falling. While whipped cream melts and falls depending on the temperature over time, meringue, which is 90% protein, has the characteristic of maintaining its shape indefinitely. Even when plated upside down, it keeps its form for five or six hours. It's a parfait I created to convey the interesting qualities of meringue.
Even if I wanted to eat it, it would feel like such a waste to break the biscuit.
Meringue also acts as a kind of adhesive, so using the same principle, you can even attach smaller cakes to it. Then, the small cakes stick in an upside-down state, expressing a world where the vertical relationship inside the glass becomes even more confusing. That's what I turned into a parfait with the name "Zero-Gravity."
The zero-gravity appearance is one thing, but it's also interesting how the unchanging shape expresses a sense of transcending time.
I'm glad you think so. I thought it would be more visually interesting to make good use of the space.
Just as there's a trend for "photogenic cross-sections" in cakes, parfaits also have the joy of seeing the cross-section. I thought that creating a hollow space there would result in something visually intriguing.
The way the cross-section is shown also has commonalities with how ingredients are handled. For example, figs have a beautiful visual on their sliced surface, so I think very carefully about how to display them inside the parfait glass.
When the layers are visible, it feels very erotic, doesn't it? (laughs)
Cakes are covered in cream, so the surprise comes after you cut them, but parfaits are served with the inside visible, so the plating is crucial.
For someone who actually makes sweets, is the cross-section of a parfait indeed a key point?
Yes. I want to consider the cross-section and the height above all else. Pudding à la Mode is a horizontal world, where it looks more beautiful to pile things on so abundantly that redcurrants or grapes hang down from the glass. But the basis of a parfait is a vertical world, so I think about building it structurally while looking at the height.
Do you ever draw sketches before you start making a sweet?
I do. In the case of a parfait, I calculate quite a bit while drawing. I draw while thinking about things like: at what height should I put this ingredient, where should I change the pattern in the cross-section, or if I don't change the flavor at this timing, it will probably feel too heavy on the stomach.
How does the final completed form reveal itself to you?
In the case of a parfait, since it's made by combining various materials like cream, sorbet, and jelly for the bottom layer, there is first a process of completing each individual element. Then I combine them in the order I want them to be eaten and finally plate them. I feel it's complete when the main flavor is established.
When making a fig parfait, if the caramelized fig on top is the part I want to convey most, the work of creation is mostly finished once that caramelized piece is done. Plating is the presentation, where I combine the things I've made in order and finish by making fine adjustments while looking at the overall balance. For a parfait, the main element is really the key.
The Power of Figs to Lead One Astray
I'm sorry to bring up the Showa era again, but I love figs, and that's because I grew up in an all-you-can-eat environment as a child. There was a fig tree in the field of the house where I was born, and my old-fashioned grandmother had a policy that the first fig should be eaten by the youngest grandchild.
Back then, we ate figs by peeling the skin, and the taste and texture were so fresh. I recently learned that there are varieties that can be eaten as they are, which are being used in parfaits and such lately.
Don't figs have a taste that makes you feel like you're about to "get lost"? For me, it's like I'm about to lose my sense of place—a precarious taste that makes me forget where I am for a moment. When figs are in a parfait or paired with prosciutto, it's so mysterious and delicious that I'm like, "What should I do!" Ota-san, do you like figs?
I love them! But as you say, there might be a feeling of "Where am I?" in the texture as the fruit crumbles in your mouth. Visually, they are very seductive and photogenic fruits. They are mysterious ingredients that also go well with acidity like balsamic vinegar.
Fruit is a staple of parfaits, but the expression of the plating changes significantly depending on it. The look of a green-themed parfait using Shine Muscat is completely different from a chocolate-themed one with bananas.
Shine Muscat parfaits are also something that started trending recently.
Unlike Alexandria grapes, which you have to peel, you can eat Shine Muscat as is, right? I heard that because of that, the distribution volume of Shine Muscat has increased tremendously. Apparently, even though there are other delicious varieties in terms of flavor, consumption has grown massively because of that convenience.
Is This Perfection? The "Strawberry Brûlée Parfait"
I love the parfaits at Royal Host.
What kind of parfaits do they have at Royal Host?
My favorite is the "Strawberry Brûlée Parfait." The top is crunchy, and below that is a layer of brûlée. I'm happy that Royal Host's sweets menu changes with the seasons, like having a chestnut fair in the autumn.
They certainly have many seasonal sweets.
Yes, the "Strawberry Brûlée Parfait" is a spring menu item, and its level of perfection is truly amazing.
It's fun to tap the caramelized part at the very top with a spoon, and the brûlée layer below it has nuts and diced bananas, giving it a slightly different character. A little further down there's whipped cream, and then vanilla ice cream appears at the bottom, but there's strawberry sorbet in here too.
It's important that this sorbet makes it very refreshing with its fruitiness and crispness. Finally, strawberry compote appears, which also has a lot of fruitiness and tartness, making it easy to eat until the very end. I think it's really well thought out.
That sounds delicious.
It's amazing that you've memorized the layers (laughs). Since we're online today, I was listening while looking at my browser, and I was surprised because your explanation is exactly like the photo.
I'm happy when I find good parfaits like that out in the world, not just those made by pastry chefs.
This parfait is perfect (laughs).
After all, the use of the top part of the glass is one key point; the visual impression changes depending on whether the ingredients go above that surface. The "Strawberry Brûlée Parfait" has caramelization there, but some creators use thin biscuits. I felt once again that the visual interest of a parfait is doubled by the expression of the cross-section.
The expression of a parfait is truly an inexhaustible world with various appearances, much like a kaleidoscope.
By the way, family restaurants do exist in France to some extent. You can, of course, eat parfaits there. In my experience, they serve banana splits—which I believe originate from America—and McDonald's has sundaes and parfaits.
However, since family restaurants and fast-food chains often use English for their product names, when it comes to something uniquely French, it is still more common to enjoy it as a dessert at the end of a meal in a restaurant.
The Endearment of Showa-Era Parfaits
Earlier, Ms. Hirano described them as having only the 'introduction' of the four-part dramatic structure (laughs). What do you think about those Showa-era parfaits? Do you ever go into those kinds of coffee shops, Ms. Hirano?
Showa-style parfaits have a certain sense of security, don't they? I like going to coffee shops, and while you certainly can't expect perfection, for example, if I order pancakes, the old man running the shop will say, 'Pancakes, right,' and disappear into the kitchen. Then, after a while, you might hear the 'ding' of a microwave (laughs).
When a microwaved pancake comes out having absorbed extra moisture, or when it's topped with a mysterious blue sauce, I feel a great sense of endearment. There is a way of engaging with parfaits that isn't just about seeking deliciousness.
In those kinds of coffee shops, just having chocolate sauce on ice cream makes you happy. It's the kind of thing where you can be satisfied with that, not just limited to parfaits.
When I think of Showa parfaits, I have a strong impression of the whipped cream. Unlike today's crème chantilly, the whipped cream back then was a bit airy and crumbly. I have an image of parfaits and coffee as a set, like putting that whipped cream into the coffee you ordered to make a Vienna coffee.
The Background of Naming
Earlier, I said that the closest thing to a Japanese parfait might be a coupe, but hearing this story reminded me of one more thing. In France, there is a dessert where crème chantilly is placed on top of ice cream. If it's on coffee ice cream, it's called a 'Café Liégeois,' and if it's chocolate ice cream, it's a 'Chocolat Liégeois.'
'Liégeois' refers to the Belgian city of Liège, and 'Café Liégeois' was originally 'Vienna Coffee.' This is because during World War I, Austria was an enemy of France, so menu names containing 'Vienna' were changed to 'Liège.'
Before that, Vienna coffee was called 'Café Viennois,' but there is a history of changing Viennois (Vienna) to Liégeois (Liège), leading to it being called 'Café Liégeois.'
The way Ms. Ota described enjoying Vienna coffee is, I think, very close to a French chocolate parfait—what they call 'Chocolat Liégeois' or 'Café Liégeois' over there.
I see. Perhaps that culture entered Japan after the war and became established in the Showa-era coffee shop culture.
By the way, other desserts topped with whipped cream include "Peach Melba" and "Belle Hélène (Beautiful Helen)." Peach Melba is derived from the name of a singer, and Belle Hélène was named after the title of an operetta written by the composer Jacques Offenbach.
French desserts have a culture of putting a lot of ingenuity into their naming.
There is also the traditional pastry called "Weekend Citron," isn't there?
That's the cake made with lemons. Is that name in English?
The word 'weekend' itself has become established in the French language.
I think the naming is wonderful because it evokes an image of a sweet meant for spending a happy weekend. It's as if the situation and the scenery of eating it come to mind.
Hearing the expression 'caramelized figs' earlier has filled my head with parfaits, and I'm practically drooling (laughs).
As Ms. Hirano said, a parfait contains so much information that I realized once again it is a dessert to be enjoyed with all your senses focused. Even before appealing to the sense of taste, it is packed with information that tickles the visual and olfactory senses. An even greater experience awaits when you put it in your mouth, and I thought it would be fun to have philosophical discussions while eating such things.
We should have done this at the Coffee Parlor Hilltop today (laughs).
That would be lovely. I'd like to make that happen someday.
Let's definitely do it again. I feel like I'm falling deeper and deeper into the parfait rabbit hole.
(Recorded online on September 22, 2021)
*Affiliations and titles are as of the time this magazine was published.