Keio University

The Allure of Chocolate

Participant Profile

  • Seiji Noaki

    Researcher at the Morinaga Angel Foundation. Graduated from the Keio University Faculty of Business and Commerce in 1972. Joined Morinaga & Co., Ltd., and retired as the head of the historical archives office. Registered archivist with The Japan Society for Archival Science, director of the Business Archives Council of Japan, and staff member of the Japan Confectionery BB Association.

    Seiji Noaki

    Researcher at the Morinaga Angel Foundation. Graduated from the Keio University Faculty of Business and Commerce in 1972. Joined Morinaga & Co., Ltd., and retired as the head of the historical archives office. Registered archivist with The Japan Society for Archival Science, director of the Business Archives Council of Japan, and staff member of the Japan Confectionery BB Association.

  • Takatsugu Yamashita

    CEO of βace, Inc. Graduated from the Keio University Faculty of Business and Commerce in 2007. Representative of "Minimal - Bean to Bar Chocolate -," which manufactures and sells chocolate from the bean. He personally travels to cacao-producing regions around the world.

    Takatsugu Yamashita

    CEO of βace, Inc. Graduated from the Keio University Faculty of Business and Commerce in 2007. Representative of "Minimal - Bean to Bar Chocolate -," which manufactures and sells chocolate from the bean. He personally travels to cacao-producing regions around the world.

  • Yuko Honya

    Professor at the Keio University Faculty of Law. Completed her master's degree at the Keio University Graduate School of Human Relations in 1996. Holds a PhD in home economics. Her specializations are Latin American studies, cultural anthropology, and the study of ethnic clothing. Her publications include the co-authored book "The Language and Culture of the Latin American World."

    Yuko Honya

    Professor at the Keio University Faculty of Law. Completed her master's degree at the Keio University Graduate School of Human Relations in 1996. Holds a PhD in home economics. Her specializations are Latin American studies, cultural anthropology, and the study of ethnic clothing. Her publications include the co-authored book "The Language and Culture of the Latin American World."

2021/02/25

The First Domestically Produced Chocolate

Honya

Speaking of February, it's Valentine's season. When did Morinaga & Co. start making chocolate?

Noaki

The integrated production from cacao beans started in 1918 (Taisho 7), and Morinaga & Co. was the first in Japan to do so. I've brought some milk chocolate today, and as you can see, the package says "since 1918."

Yamashita

So until then, you were importing it?

Noaki

It seems they were importing bitter chocolate as a raw material from foreign countries and then processing it.

Morinaga & Co. was originally founded in 1899 in Akasaka Tameike by Taichiro Morinaga, who had studied Western confectionery in the United States. Knowing that chocolate was popular as a common sweet there, he, along with Hanzaburo Matsuzaki, who would later become the second president, decided to make chocolate in Japan. I heard they introduced large-scale machinery for integrated chocolate production, but they didn't know if it would be accepted in Japan yet, so I think it was a major decision at the time.

They worked to popularize it by placing advertisements in newspapers with detailed explanations like "What is chocolate?" After that, companies like Meiji and Daito Cacao began integrated production in Japan.

Yamashita

Is the retro packaging of this chocolate bar a reproduction of the original design?

Noaki

Actually, this packaging hasn't changed much in over 100 years. They probably wanted to make an unfamiliar sweet as approachable as possible.

Yamashita

I go directly to cacao producers in Central and South America, Africa, and Asia to source beans. Where did the cacao that Morinaga first used come from?

Noaki

Unfortunately, there are no records left. I imagine they probably imported it through a trading company.

Until before the war, Morinaga & Co.'s main product was milk caramel. This was because at the time, there were import quotas on cacao, so it couldn't be freely imported. I think a major reason why many manufacturers started selling chocolate soon after the war was the relaxation of cacao import quotas and tariffs.

As a result, along with the post-war economic recovery, sweets became more affordable, and chocolate came to be eaten more widely.

Bringing Japanese Craftsmanship to Chocolate

Yamashita

As the representative of βace, Inc., I run a chocolate brand called "Minimal - Bean to Bar Chocolate-." Six years ago, I launched this specialty chocolate brand, which sources cacao beans directly from local producers. We currently have two stores in Tokyo.

Honya

It's incredibly popular, isn't it? What got you into the world of chocolate, Mr. Yamashita?

Yamashita

I'm 36 now, but in my 20s, I was just a regular office worker at a consulting firm. As the labor population decreases due to a declining birthrate and aging population, GDP will fall even if productivity increases. When I wondered what I could contribute through economic activity in such a situation, what came to mind was the world of craftsmanship that utilizes the meticulousness of the Japanese people.

With the desire to "get involved in manufacturing myself," I encountered the culture of Bean to Bar (the integrated process of making chocolate bars from cacao beans) and started my business. This movement seems to have been sparked by people in the U.S. around 2007 and took off in earnest around 2013.

Honya

Since Minimal was founded in 2014, you were a pioneer in Japan.

Yamashita

Chocolate, which originated in the West, has a historical accumulation of several hundred years of techniques, like French cuisine, that involve layering fats. In contrast, I redefined Bean to Bar not as addition, but as "chocolate of subtraction." What can be created when you "subtract" as much as possible other than the core material of cacao? I thought this approach would be interesting for competing in the global market while leveraging the quality of Japanese handiwork.

The fermentation process of cacao is key for chocolate. I learned fermentation techniques from an expert and applied fermentation techniques from things like sake to the fermentation of cacao beans.

Honya

So that extra step of fermentation is important.

Yamashita

The way to bring out the flavor of the cacao bean as a raw material is similar to wine; it's conditioned by factors like the variety, terroir (place of origin), farming methods, fermentation methods, and transportation methods.

For example, finely changing each detail, from the temperature setting of the container during transport to the roasting time of the beans, the way they are crushed, and how the oil is extracted, creates completely different flavors.

A Discovery That Overturns Chocolate History

Honya

I study the culture and customs of Mesoamerica (the region from present-day Mexico to Costa Rica), the very place where cacao originated. In cacao's native region, chocolate has long been consumed as a beverage.

Yamashita

That's right.

Honya

Actually, there were major discoveries concerning chocolate in 2011 and 2018. Two common theories about cacao were overturned: one by the discovery that the Pueblo Indians, an indigenous people of the southwestern United States, drank chocolate, and the other by the discovery of the oldest cacao from stone and pottery excavated at a site in Ecuador, South America.

Because cacao had been discovered at archaeological sites in Mexico and Guatemala, Mesoamerica was previously said to be the origin of cacao. However, this discovery revealed that Ecuador is the root.

Also, based on artifacts from the Aztec and Mayan civilizations in the Mesoamerican region, chocolate was thought to be a potent substance and luxury item for the aristocratic class. However, it seems that among the Pueblo Indians, common people also drank chocolate.

Yamashita

So, does that mean South America is indeed the root?

Honya

At present, South America is the leading candidate for the root. However, I believe there are more historical materials related to cacao in the Mesoamerican region. For example, at a Mayan civilization site called Calakmul, a mural depicting people drinking cacao has been found.

The Aztec civilization achieved great prosperity through extensive trade. In that trade, cacao seems to have held high value, and it is said that cacao spread through this trade. There are also records that Aztec royalty loved chocolate beverages and drank many cups a day.

Chocolate as a Beverage

Honya

I'll never forget when I first encountered chocolate as a beverage at the age of 22. I was traveling through Mexico and Guatemala by bus for about two months with a backpack, and I came across chocolate in a market in the town of Oaxaca, Mexico.

It was a light brown liquid with white foam on top, and its appearance was so unappealing that I was shocked it was a drink. But when I actually drank it, it was deeply flavorful and very delicious. I was doubly surprised that a drink could have such a different appearance and taste!

Noaki

You drank it even though you thought it looked unappealing.

Honya

The local people told me, "Why did you come to Oaxaca if you're not going to drink this?" so I mustered up the courage (laughs).

Yamashita

In Mexico, they use a style called "stone grinding," where the cacao beans are ground with a stone mill, so the refining is coarse, and you get crunchy particles in the drink. When making it into a beverage, I think it's common to dilute it with a liquid made from ground and dissolved corn or wheat. What was the one you drank diluted with?

Honya

Corn. It had a thick, viscous texture. The stone mill itself was a primitive one called a "metate," and they use it to grind not just cacao but all sorts of things.

Yamashita

They grind and mix in spices with it too, right?

Honya

Cacao beans, spices, everything is ground on the metate using a stone rod called a "mano." Mano means hand in Spanish.

Yamashita

I have one.

Honya

Using tools like these to grind it a bit coarsely creates a unique deliciousness, doesn't it?

Chocolate in Central and South America

Yamashita

In Central and South America, there's a culture of drinking cacao beverages with spices in many places. Some places add sweet spices like anise, cloves, and cinnamon, while in cooler climates, they might add ginger.

Honya

They also add chili peppers. I found these differences interesting and have been drinking it wherever I go. In cool, high-altitude areas, it's sometimes drunk to warm the body.

They also mix in locally specific spices like achiote, a food coloring, and vanilla. I wonder if these drinking methods are a remnant of when it was consumed as a tonic or medicine.

Yamashita

The names are different in each region, too. In Nicaragua, where I went for a JICA ODA-related project, it was called "tiste." It's interesting how the name changes by region, and how local grandmothers have their own unique recipes.

Honya

Chocolate as a beverage has probably been a tradition for over a thousand years. In 2010, Mexican cuisine was registered as a UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage, and the method of preparing everything by grinding it with a stone mill is considered a typical method from before the Spanish colonized the New World.

Nicaragua is south of Mexico and closer to the equator, so they drink it cold, right? Conversely, in the highlands of Guatemala that I often visit, at altitudes of 1,500 meters or more, drinking it warm is the mainstream, but cacao is considered a luxury item. Most of it is exported, and it doesn't reach the common people.

It's the same with coffee. If you order "coffee" locally, you get a drink that's like a diluted coffee, almost like a black bean tea.

Yamashita

Cacao beans for chocolate exported to developed countries in Europe and America go through a fermentation process, but those distributed domestically in places like Central America are often unfermented. Fermentation is labor-intensive, so only products destined for export that can be sold at a high price can afford to go through that process properly.

The fermentation of cacao beans is an important process that enriches the flavor and breaks down the polyphenols that cause astringency. But when you go to the source, you often get something with a different nuance from the chocolate and coffee we are familiar with.

The Origin of Chocolate Confectionery

Yamashita

It's said that enjoying chocolate as a sweet confection by adding sugar and milk began during the Industrial Revolution in Europe. Sugar was among the spices brought over around the same time as cacao, and eventually, they were combined to make sweets.

That's how manufacturers like Van Houten and Nestlé began production, and it seems to have spread to the general public.

Honya

The prevailing theory is that Hernán Cortés brought cacao to Europe. When Cortés had an audience with Moctezuma, the Aztec king, he learned that cacao was used as a form of currency. He brought it back to Europe and presented it to Charles I of Spain (Charles V) in 1528, which is said to have been the catalyst for it being consumed in Europe.

Noaki

According to some books, Columbus's cargo also included cacao, but he apparently almost ignored it and left it neglected in the ship's hold.

Honya

That's right. Initially, it was a beverage in Europe as well. It became solid in the 19th century.

Yamashita

Solid chocolate was made possible through various technological innovations. After that, methods for making smooth chocolate paste like couverture were developed, and business models like chocolatiers and confectionery manufacturers, who produce chocolate sweets from the paste, were born and became more sophisticated.

Chocolate and the Japanese People

Noaki

The first chocolate bar that Taichiro Morinaga and others sold was about one size smaller than today's, and it would have cost about 1,500 to 2,000 yen in today's currency. Cacao beans were also very expensive at the time, so it seems it was indeed a luxury confection.

Honya

I wonder what kind of people ate it.

Noaki

The upper class, I'd imagine. There's an interesting anecdote in the biography of Masaharu Takeuchi, the founder of Daito Cacao, a major manufacturer of chocolate for confectionery ingredients. When Mr. Takeuchi brought his parents a souvenir of sweets like what we now call Chocoballs, his mother peeled off the chocolate around them and ate only the sugar candy part inside (laughs).

Through the educational efforts of various manufacturers, it gradually spread to a wider audience and became as inexpensive and accessible as it is today.

Honya

It's amazing that a food that was once enjoyed by only a limited number of people has become so beloved.

Noaki

On the other hand, a different kind of dedicated chocolate making, like Bean to Bar, is also emerging.

As the number of manufacturers increases, so does the level of dedication, which raises costs. But we are now in an era where people can enjoy the depth of products made with time and effort, even if they are a bit expensive. At the same time, there is an abundance of easily enjoyable chocolate. This is a dramatic change that would have been unthinkable back in 1918.

Variety in Ways of Eating

Honya

The strange thing about eating chocolate is that it makes you feel energized.

Yamashita

A naturally occurring component called theobromine is said to have a stimulating effect.

Honya

I once had the opportunity to meet a Mayan shaman in Guatemala and participate in a local ritual. There's a legend that the gods prefer sweet and fragrant things, so it was a custom to always prepare chocolate and alcohol as offerings.

Noaki

So there's a culture like that.

Honya

Also, when I first traveled to Mexico, I received a disc-shaped chocolate as a souvenir.

I thought it was an unusual shape and took a bite, but was told, "That's not how you eat it." It was actually solid cocoa powder, meant to be dissolved in hot water and frothed to drink. Locally, they put the disc in a gourd-shaped container and stir it with a pestle-like stick. "Chocolate" is Spanish, but in Mexico, it seems to refer to this disc-shaped cocoa powder.

Yamashita

That might be cacao mass. It's made by roasting and grinding the nibs of cacao beans into a paste and then solidifying it. You can see it in Asia as well. If you go to a local market in the Philippines, you might find a shop simmering it in a pot. It's 100% cacao, so it's not sweet at all, but they pour it over sticky rice to eat. It seems that consuming it without sugar is common in its country of origin.

Noaki

Both cacao and sugar were trade goods, so at first, they were monopolized by royalty and nobility. People in Europe must have realized that combining them would create something even better.

Honya

When I first drank it in Mexico, it had a faint sweetness. It's too bitter to drink as is, so they add honey instead.

Yamashita

Yes, they sometimes drink it with honey. Or they add sweet spices like anise and cloves.

Honya

The aroma is also part of the enjoyment. Sugar production is also big in Central and South America, so they sometimes flavor it with brown sugar.

Chocolate That Soothes Pilgrims

Honya

Have you heard of a food in Spain called chocolate con churros?

The locals dip fried doughnuts called churros into chocolate, but this chocolate is a thick, syrupy liquid, like a kudzu starch drink. It's so rich it can upset your stomach, and I wondered, "Why would they eat it like this?" But later, I learned that the place where this is a specialty, Santiago de Compostela, is a Catholic pilgrimage site, and it all made sense.

Santiago is in the northern tip of Spain, a place with few sunny days throughout the year. The first thing the exhausted pilgrims eat when they arrive is this chocolate con churros. The high-calorie fried doughnuts and thick chocolate must really soak into their tired bodies.

Noaki

Indeed, sweet chocolate eaten when you're exhausted from walking would be deeply satisfying.

Chocolate probably entered Spain around the 16th century. Van Houten was founded, and solid chocolate appeared in England in the 19th century, but I get the impression that Spain has preserved its food culture from the 16th and 17th centuries.

I think I read somewhere that Catholic monasteries ate something like a chocolate bar.

Honya

In Mexico, there's a chocolate sauce called mole. It's a brown sauce that looks just like a chocolate paste. This cooking method was also developed in a monastery. They add about five kinds of chili peppers, sesame seeds, achiote, pumpkin seeds, and almonds, grind them with a stone mill to make the sauce, and it's delicious when poured over chicken. It's one of Mexico's specialty dishes.

The depth of chocolate lies in its ability to be arranged into various forms. I hear it's even used in cosmetics recently.

Yamashita

It's being made into skin lotions, right? It's gained a reputation for being high in polyphenols and having strong antioxidant effects, and more people are starting to use it.

Honya

Its gentle aroma is probably another reason why it's expanding into various uses.

Noaki

In Japan right now, products focusing on the antioxidant effects of cacao polyphenols and the health benefits of chocolate are really flooding the market.

Rather than the old "full of fun, for healthy kids" type of chocolate, the ones advertised as being good for your health are taking over the supermarket shelves.

Honya

Since when did that trend start?

Noaki

In 1995, when a TV program featured the benefits of cocoa, cocoa disappeared from store shelves all at once. Since 2010, with the rise of health consciousness, I think companies started increasing products focused on health to dispel the image of "high calorie, high sugar."

Yamashita

Products clearly marked with "XX% cacao" are particularly noticeable, aren't they?

We also display the cacao content on our packaging, but we don't market it as "good for your health." We do it because we find it interesting to directly bring out the original flavor of the cacao, and we want to specialize in that.

In the world of coffee, too, with what's recently been called third-wave coffee or specialty coffee, a culture centered on acidity is becoming accepted, in contrast to the previous evaluation of it being just bitter.

Honya

This shift in values is probably also influenced by the slow life movement, the desire to eat things that are made slowly and carefully and are good for the body. My parents also eat Morinaga's "Carré de Chocolat," saying, "It's good for you, so I have to eat two pieces a day" (laughs).

Yamashita

"Carré de Chocolat" is very popular, isn't it?

Noaki

I eat it every morning now, but 10 or 20 years ago, high-cacao chocolate wasn't very popular. It feels like a different era now that everyone finds it delicious. How much cacao is in Minimal's chocolate?

Yamashita

The lowest is 65%. The average is 70-75%. The highest is 80% to 90%.

Noaki

Meiji's "The Chocolate" is also 70%, right? I wonder if the increase in people who enjoy it is due to a change in taste or technological innovation.

Yamashita

I think there's definitely a part that has advanced technologically. When mass production began, they roasted large quantities of beans at high temperatures to kill bacteria on the shells, which scorched some of the beans.

Scorching is a source of bitterness and off-flavors, so it was difficult to bring out the original flavor of the cacao. However, in recent years, technology has been established to delicately control the roasting process to prevent scorching, allowing for a more detailed and careful pursuit of flavor.

Fair Trade Cacao Beans

Yamashita

Minimal isn't aiming for the health-conscious market, but we've devised a fermentation method that reduces bitterness, so even at 70-80%, it's very easy to eat. However, when we have elderly people try it, they sometimes say, "It's not bitter enough, so it's unsatisfying."

Noaki

Maybe they're from the generation that thinks, "Good medicine tastes bitter" (laughs).

Yamashita

Recently, interest in the origin of the beans has also started to grow. For example, the movement to use "single origin" cacao, where the raw material is unified to a single origin or farm to bring out its aroma, has also gained attention over the past five years or so.

Honya

People around me are starting to say things like, "Venezuelan is the best" (laughs). It's really like wine, isn't it?

Noaki

I don't know about now, but in the past, the global production of cacao beans was not that large, and prices fluctuated wildly. Since the raw material cost for making a product with a single type of bean was unstable, I think they created a stable supply system by blending. When you're particular about the beans like Mr. Yamashita, isn't it difficult when prices fluctuate?

Yamashita

We buy 100% fair trade at prices higher than the market rate based on our own standards, so we are not affected by market prices. There are standards for cacao prices set by the ICCO (International Cocoa Organization), and in markets like London and New York, it's about $2,000 to $3,000 per ton. For our lots, the general market price is probably around $2 to $3 per kilogram.

At Minimal, we basically evaluate the origin, production method, and quality properly, and then we purchase the beans at a minimum price of the market price plus $1 per kilogram, and sometimes at several times the market price, depending on the quality.

This inevitably raises the unit price, and a single chocolate bar costs about 1,500 yen. Of course, we make our products with the confidence that they are worth it, but it's up to the customer to judge if that's appropriate.

Honya

The fact that Minimal is celebrating its sixth anniversary is proof that there is a certain number of customers who seek high-end chocolate, isn't it?

Yamashita

That's right. The number of producers is also increasing, and there are now about 60 to 100 specialty chocolate manufacturers nationwide.

Many of them are small-scale, but when I started, you could count the number on one hand, so it has increased considerably in these six years. We couldn't hold it this year due to the coronavirus pandemic, but every year, I organize an event called the "Craft Chocolate Festival," which is very successful.

Honya

Whenever I hear stories like that, I go out, saying, "As a fieldworker, I have to see it for myself" (laughs).

Social Contribution Through Chocolate

Honya

Recently, a great number of students are interested in environmental issues and social contribution activities.

Child labor is a problem in cacao-producing regions, and it is particularly serious in African countries. In this context, I heard that Morinaga & Co. was the first Japanese manufacturer to start an initiative in 2008 called "1 Choco for 1 Smile" to support the education of children in cacao-producing countries. I understand that for every chocolate purchased, one yen is donated.

Noaki

This system isn't one where Morinaga & Co. donates directly to the production areas. Instead, we partner with Plan International Japan, a public interest incorporated foundation, and ACE, a certified NPO, both of which conduct support activities in developing countries. We entrust a portion of our sales to them and support their activities.

Although it's a company-wide initiative, I think the passion of the development and sales staff has a significant impact. Through internal discussions, one staff member proposed a scheme to partner with NGOs and NPOs, and the company has actively embraced and continued it.

Honya

The Harkin-Engel Protocol, signed in 2001 by a U.S. congressman and the Chocolate Manufacturers Association, was the catalyst for the fair trade movement, wasn't it?

Noaki

In the past, Morinaga & Co. manufactured and sold "Fair Trade Certified Chocolate," but it was difficult to sustain. On top of that, we are contributing to society through products like "Carré de Chocolat" in the form of "1 Choco for 1 Smile."

Starting in fiscal 2020, Morinaga & Co. began using certified cacao beans (Cocoa Horizons certified cacao provided by Barry Callebaut) that help solve social issues and contribute to sustainable procurement for some of its chocolate products. We aim to switch 100% of the cacao beans used in our domestic products to sustainable raw materials by fiscal 2025.

Honya

Mr. Yamashita, as someone who sources cacao beans through fair trade, what are your thoughts?

Yamashita

As Mr. Noaki says, when you think about chocolate as a whole, there are some difficult realities. About 60-70% of cacao production is concentrated in West African countries like Côte d'Ivoire and Ghana.

According to one review, more than 2.22 million children between the ages of 12 and 15 are forced to work in West Africa. If 70% of cacao is produced by them, then the things we eat every day might have some connection to it. I believe that if we view this in a black-and-white, all-or-nothing way, we won't be able to eat chocolate at all.

That's why I want people to enjoy chocolate through various options, not just one way. There's affordable chocolate for the general public, and there's chocolate sourced at high prices through fair trade. I hope that increasing consumer choices will lead to an increase in fair trade and, at the very least, a gradual resolution of problems like child labor.

Now that ICT has developed, consumers' information sensitivity has also dramatically improved.

Noaki

Exactly, having many options is what's important.

Yamashita

Even I, who makes craft chocolate, naturally want to eat Morinaga's chocolate. It's not just delicious; there's also a system that allows for social contribution within that freedom of choice.

Noaki

It's wonderful that customers' choices are expanding, which is precisely why there's also an aspect where you lose in market competition if you don't improve quality.

The Origin of Valentine's Day?

Honya

Was Morinaga the first to start the event of giving chocolate on February 14th in Japan?

Noaki

Historically speaking, it seems the oldest instance was a newspaper ad by Morozoff before the war. After the war, various manufacturers followed suit, so it's very difficult to determine what the beginning was. However, when I was in the historical archives office, it was said that Morinaga & Co. was a company that helped popularize Valentine's Day.

Around 1960, when launching a new product called "Morinaga Chocolate Gold," we ran ads in newspapers and on TV that heavily featured Valentine's Day.

Honya

So you're pioneers in many ways.

Yamashita

In Europe, men give flowers to women on Valentine's Day, right?

Honya

In Spanish-speaking countries, there's a custom called Dia del Amor (Day of Love), where lovers exchange gifts. When I tell men over there that in Japan, girls give chocolate to boys they like to confess their feelings, they all say they wish they had been born in Japan (laughs).

Noaki

February is perfect for campaigns in Japan. In the business world, February and August are called "nippachi" because sales tend to be slow, and the advertising department at the time focused on that.

Yamashita

Valentine's Day is now a market worth over 100 billion yen, after all.

Honya

Valentine's Day is also changing in various ways now, like exchanging "friendship chocolate" among friends.

Yamashita

Romantic chocolate for a true love seems to be decreasing. It's shifting from obligation chocolate to friendship chocolate.

Noaki

And treats for oneself, too.

Honya

Expensive chocolate that you don't usually eat would be a perfect reward chocolate, I suppose.

Yamashita

Many customers buy it as a reward chocolate. The part-time staff at our store also said that the chocolate they give to their fathers is the chocolate they want to eat themselves. They go with their mothers to choose it, give it to their father once, but it comes back to them via their father (laughs). So they choose the chocolate they want to eat.

Noaki

They choose it calculating that it will come back to them.

Honya

Clever (laughs). There's still so much more to talk about, but this was very enjoyable. Thank you very much for today.

*Affiliations, job titles, etc., are as of the time of this publication.

A Casual Conversation among Three

Showing item 1 of 3.

A Casual Conversation among Three

Showing item 1 of 3.