Enjoying Bunraku

It has been over 10 years since I started watching Bunraku. I am starting to see plays for the second or third time now, but lately, I find myself unable to tell if I am seeing something for the first time or not (laughs). There are quite a few similar stories, aren't there?

Usually, I come home thinking, "That was so unreasonable" (laughs).

There are many sad plays, after all.

Isn't that fine? It feels fresh every time (laughs). For flashy plays like "Natsumatsuri Naniwa Kagami," some people watch it thinking, "Kanjuro-san operated it last time," or "Tamao-san is operating it this time."

Certainly, if you watch it several times, you understand it better and can truly savor it.

I also hope the audience will watch a play two or three times rather than just once.

Yesterday was the final day (senshuuraku) of the April Bunraku performance (Kanadehon Chushingura at the National Bunraku Theatre), so I put a lot of energy into it. Especially in the final scene of the fourth act, "Shiro Akewatashi no Dan" (The Surrender of the Castle).

Master Tamao played Oboshi Yuranosuke, and despite appearing for only the last 30 minutes of a four-hour performance, he stole the show (laughs).

I feel a bit bad about it. After the sword attack in the palace involving Kanjuro (Kiritake) [as Ko no Moronao] and Kazuo (Yoshida) [as Enya Hangan], Hangan commits seppuku, the retainers all leave the castle, and the finale becomes a solo performance by Yuranosuke.

Yuranosuke arrives late to the scene of the seppuku, and then comes the surrender of the castle. Bunraku sets use painted backdrops, and the large background suddenly flips to a smaller one to represent moving away from the castle through perspective. Just from his posture as he walks away, you can already feel Yuranosuke's anguish.

Yesterday, the "legs" were very good, and I told Tamamichi (Yoshida), who was operating the legs, "I could even see the muscles in the legs."

That is wonderful. You are quite the connoisseur.

Since he is going outside the castle, he tucks up the hem of his hakama slightly. When he does that, you can see the puppet's shins a little.

This is becoming a very technical conversation, so as a non-expert, let me explain (laughs): in Bunraku, a single puppet is usually operated by three people. This, first of all, is amazing.

Bunraku is the only puppet theater in the world that uses three operators for one puppet.

When you enter the profession, you start by learning the legs, right?

Yes, the legs.

Ten years for the legs. And for the left hand...?

Fifteen years.

Fifteen years for the left hand! The right hand and the head (kashira) are handled by the main operator (omozukai), right?

Yes. You hold the head with the left hand and move the puppet's right hand with your right hand.

But to get to that point, it first takes ten years of training on the legs.

Ten years in this day and age!

I also graduated after about ten years when my master recognized my progress.

Master Tamao, at what age did you enter the profession?

At 14.

In Kabuki, those who take on major roles are often from hereditary families. In Bunraku, however, while there is heredity, there are many people like Master Tamao who were not raised in such families. The previous Master Tamao (the first) was also not from a Bunraku family.

That's right. In my case, a puppet operator lived in my neighborhood.

That would be the late Tamasho (Yoshida).

Yes. Around 1966 or 1967, there was a severe shortage of successors. So, when I was in my second year of junior high school, Tamasho-san asked me, "Why don't you come and visit Bunraku once?"

So you were lured in (laughs). With a single piece of candy.

No, it wasn't candy.

It was udon (laughs). In Kansai, it's always udon. That's how I became an apprentice to the previous Tamao. It was at a place called the Ashizaza in Dotonbori, Osaka (which closed in 1984).

Right after joining, I wasn't allowed to operate the legs yet. First, they let me play the role of opening and closing the small side curtain (komaku) where the puppets enter and exit. There are people who give various shouts like "Hai!" or "Iyo!" when the puppet operators come out. I was told, "When I say 'Hai,' you open the curtain."

So you started with the role of opening the curtain.

Yes. And when the play was over, I would set out the master's sandals at his feet when he took off his stage clogs, or hand him wet towels and hand towels.

Like a personal assistant.

Something like that. While doing those things, I was gradually taught the "legs."

Did you ever think, "This is boring, I'm going to quit"?

I never felt that way. It was interesting. In Bunraku, you have the chanter (tayu) and the shamisen, and the puppet moves in sync with them. Anyway, I was amazed when I first saw the Bunraku puppet stage. It was like a movie theater. I looked to the side and the stage was right there.

At the Ashizaza back then, puppets were lined up all along the hallway. Since I was a 14 or 15-year-old kid, it was scary at first.

That does sound scary.

I have seen it several times myself, and when a puppet is just sitting there, it is nothing more than an object.

However, as soon as the operator lifts the head slightly, it instantly gains a soul.

That's right. A puppet is indeed dead as it is. But when an operator holds it, the audience goes, "Oh?"

Even with a slight, subtle movement, a soul enters the puppet. Bunraku puppetry involves technique, but we really put our hearts into operating them.

Yesterday was the final day of the main performance in Osaka. How was the overall attendance this time?

Fortunately, it was very good. We performed "Chushingura" to commemorate the 35th anniversary of the National Bunraku Theatre. It is a full-length play (toshi-kyogen), and normally it would be completed in one day, but doing the whole thing would make it very late at night. Especially this time, since it is billed as a complete performance of all acts, we did up to the fourth act in April, and will continue from the fifth act in July. After that, we will do acts eight through eleven in November.

How many hours does it take if you do it all the way through?

In previous full-length performances, it would start at 10:30 AM and end around 9:30 PM.

Incredible! That's even longer than Wagner. Did people in the Edo period watch the whole thing through?

Yes. They would start early in the morning, and since there was no lighting at night, they would finish when the sun went down. I imagine it was something like that.

I am actually a bad audience member; when the Gidaiyu and shamisen come in with just the right feel, I tend to doze off (laughs). It's embarrassing, but does that ever happen to you, Ms. Dan?

I sleep in a way that doesn't look like I'm sleeping—so much so that people say I could marry into the Imperial Family (laughs). It's like my consciousness drifts away while my eyes are still open.

If someone is in the front seats, can you tell from the stage, "Ah, this customer is sleeping"?

Yes, we can tell.

Then I'll be careful from now on (laughs).

But you will definitely get sleepy (laughs). The Joruri of a good chanter really does make you sleep well. I truly believe that. A less skilled chanter just has a loud voice, which becomes rather grating on the ears.

I heard a story recently about a Bunraku performance in Yufuin where they had puppet operators perform to an SP record of the old master, Toyotake Yamashiro no Shojo (Kotsubo Dayu), played on a gramophone.

Apparently, the puppet operator said, "The puppet was so easy to operate, it was wonderful. Let me do it one more time." Does the chanter's narration really make that much of a difference?

That would be Yamashiro no Shojo with Master Seiroku (Tsuruzawa) on shamisen. It seems they are going to do "Nozakimura" with a gramophone again. It really is good. I listened to a recording of Yamashiro no Shojo narrating while my predecessor operated the puppet, and it was absolutely magnificent.

Perhaps because I was a Major in Japanese Literature, I have been watching Bunraku since I was about 25.

There are many seniors who are experts on Kabuki. Since I was studying early modern literature, I thought I should look into something else, and that's when I started watching Bunraku. At that time, Master Tamao went by the name Tamame, and his hair was standing straight up (laughs). It was just about 10 years after you entered the profession, and you were still playing small roles.

Was that around the time you moved from the legs to the left hand?

I think it was around the time you started doing the left hand for the previous generation (Master Tamao). Back then, I couldn't tell at all who was doing the left hand, but recently, it's become fun to even figure out who is on the left and who is on the legs.

That's amazing.

You can tell by their physique.

But you can't see the leg puppeteer from the audience, can you?

No, but sometimes they turn around or move, and you can see their build.

That's impressive. I'm not at that level yet.

Regarding the high clogs (geta) worn by the main puppeteer—how high are they?

The tall ones can be as high as 40 centimeters.

I see, so because there are people handling the legs, the main puppeteer's clogs are made high to create space underneath. The stage itself is also slightly elevated.

That's right. And there is a leg-hiding screen called the 'tesuri.' It's about 2 shaku 8 sun, which is just under 90 centimeters. When you hold the puppet up there, it looks like the puppet is standing on the ground. For that reason, no matter how tall you are, you wear stage clogs to operate the puppet.

Since you are quite tall, Tamao-san, I imagine it must be easier for the person handling your puppet's legs because of the height.

I think it's relatively easy. However, as you get older, the puppet feels heavier and starts to sink lower. I'm 65 now, after all.

The main puppeteer supports the entire weight of the puppet, after all.

How many kilograms does a puppet weigh?

The heaviest ones are about 10 kilograms.

And you support that with just your left hand.

Yes. However, the left-hand puppeteer holds a rod called a 'sashigane' and pulls the puppet's waist back to help support it. That makes it a bit lighter.

But if they support it too much, the puppet can become distorted, so they shouldn't overdo it.

So if they support the puppet with just the right balance while operating the left hand, it makes things easier for the main puppeteer.

Exactly. The left-hand puppeteer supports it so it doesn't distort. That is the responsibility of the left-hand puppeteer.

It's a strange thing; I said earlier that the leg puppeteers aren't very visible, but if you think about it, everyone is actually in plain sight.

That's true.

The main puppeteers and other key performers even have their faces exposed.

Yet, when it's a great performance, everything else disappears, and it feels like only the puppet is moving. That's such a mysterious world.

First-time viewers often feel that the 'kurogo' (stagehands in black) are a distraction. However, many people say that after seeing it two or three times, they stop noticing them. I find that very interesting.

At the busiest moments, there can be about eight puppets on stage at once. That means there are 3 x 8 = 24 puppeteers up there.

Twenty-four people swarming on that small stage (laughs).

When there are many puppets, they can get in each other's way. Operating with three people is quite a challenge.

For our generation, we grew up watching Toei period dramas or seeing them often on TV, so we could naturally get into period pieces. We used to recite lines like "That's unheard of, Denbei-san!" or "And my father's name is... Awa no Jurobei." But that environment doesn't exist anymore.

I think young people today would find Bunraku interesting if they saw it. It has a different kind of appeal from Kabuki.

It's definitely interesting. I feel like the manga generation might be able to use their imagination even more with Bunraku than with Kabuki.

As Osamu Hashimoto wrote, the Gidayu narration really expands the Japanese vocabulary and is very educational. I think it would be good to let children recite a bit and memorize the good parts. Maybe you could start doing that at Keio Yochisha (laughs).

I think using one's voice is a very good thing for children today.

On NHK E-Tele's 'Nihongo de Asobo,' Kanjuro-san is performing, isn't he?

Yes. Seisuke Tsuruzawa (shamisen) and Oritayu Takemoto are appearing together with him.

I make sure to go see it four times a year in Tokyo and at least once a year in Osaka, but in Tokyo, it's quite hard to get tickets.

That's true.

Since the regulars always buy tickets for the next show, the audience demographic might always be the same. Is there any way to broaden the audience base?

When I complained about not being able to get tickets, I was told, "Please come to Osaka" (laughs).

The theater in Tokyo is small, after all. Osaka has 753 seats, while Tokyo has 550. That's a difference of about 200. Since Tokyo has a larger population and many people come, a difference of 200 is quite significant.

Furthermore, the runs are longer in Osaka. While Tokyo has 17 days, Osaka has about 22 or 23 days. So, I think Osaka audiences feel they can go see Bunraku more casually at any time.

There are also regional performances like the Nagato Chikamatsu Bunraku in Nagato City. Even in Tokyo, there are regional performances at the Ota Ward Citizens' Hall, Akasaka Bunraku (Akasaka Civic Center), and Nippon Bunraku has performed at Meiji Jingu.

I hope many people will come to those venues as well.

I'd be in trouble if it became so popular that I couldn't get my own seat, though (laughs).

Main performances continue in Osaka and Tokyo, and in between, there are solo performances, school performances, and every summer we perform in old theaters like Uchiko-za (Uchiko Town, Ehime Prefecture), so there's almost no month where Bunraku isn't being performed.

Then you must be very busy. That sounds tough.

What I find wonderful about Bunraku as an actor is that the puppets don't shed tears or change their facial expressions. Yet, just by the puppet looking slightly up, down, or to the side, expressions emerge.

That's right. Even a single nod can change everything.

This is the head (photo) of the previous Tamao; it's made of Japanese cypress (hinoki). It's something the master made himself.

The head is bald. So you attach the wig (katsura) every time.

We attach and remove them. This head is named 'Bunshichi.' All the roles have names. 'Bunshichi' is for the lead role.

When I move it, the eyes turn toward you, Dan-san. If I pull this, the eyes move the other way.

The corners of the eyes are properly reddened, aren't they?

This is called a 'choi' (pull-peg), a mechanism to make the puppet nod. It uses the first string of a futozao shamisen, which passes under the face and throat and is tied to a bamboo peg. Since it's knot-free cypress, these heads can really last for 100 years.

Even if the head name is the same 'Bunshichi,' some are handsome and others are not, right?

That's right. Below 'Bunshichi' is 'Kenbishi,' which is a bit younger. One level below that is 'Genta.'

So there are several heads with the name 'Bunshichi.' I suppose among the 'Musume' (young girl) heads, there are beautiful ones and some that are not so much (laughs).

Like the 'Musume' or the 'Fukeoyama' (older woman) roles.

Yes. Every face is completely different. There are exceptionally good faces, some slightly stern faces—there are many varieties.

I didn't bring the body today, but the head is inserted into the puppet's torso, and the costume is put on the body.

You put futon cotton inside those costumes, don't you? I heard a story that people are having trouble because old-fashioned futon cotton is disappearing.

That's true. Modern futons use things like nylon batting, which is light. It's completely different from old cotton. Old cotton is incredibly soft.

I was asked, "Dan-san, do you have any old futons at your house?" (laughs).

I heard that putting on the costumes is the puppeteer's job.

It's called "Ningyo-koshirae" (puppet preparation), and the puppeteers do it themselves.

Does that include sewing and dressing them?

That's right. We attach the clothes to the puppet's body, starting from the collar.

In your case, Tamao-san, as far as I've seen, you mostly play tachiyaku (male roles).

Yes, I am a tachiyaku specialist.

Even when your name was Tamame (containing the character for "woman"), you only played men (laughs).

Exactly. When I succeeded to my current name, I went from Tama-"me" (woman) to Tama-"o" (man).

Do you no longer play female roles at all?

When I was 25 or 26, I was given minor roles like maids or courtesans, but not since then. Occasionally, I might play a female villain, such as Iwafuji in "Kagamiyama Kokyo no Nishikie" or Yashio in "Meiboku Sendai Hagi."

So you can play the "bad woman" roles (laughs).

That's right. Those are generally performed by tachiyaku puppeteers.

Because the movements are more vigorous?

Even in Kabuki, those roles are often performed by tachiyaku actors like Kataoka Nizaemon or Nakamura Kichiemon, aren't they?

Previously, at the Terakoya public lecture at the Densho Hall in Shibuya, you performed the role of Osono in "Sakaya," didn't you? You seemed quite shy back then (laughs).

Well, it is embarrassing. When you've been doing male roles for so long, it's not something you usually do. Plus, I have a large build.

My late master performed old female roles, and Master Minosuke is an oyama (female role specialist) but also plays young male roles. The previous Kanjuro was strictly a tachiyaku puppeteer, but the current Kanjuro does both.

Does that mean someone like Kanjuro-san is rare?

Yes. It's rare to find someone who can do both so skillfully.

Female puppets don't have legs, do they?

They don't.

But there is still a foot puppeteer?

Of course.

You say "of course," but they don't have legs! (laughs)

We manipulate the hem of the kimono like this.

So you make it look as if there are legs when the puppet sits down, for example.

That's right. There are parts called "tsumami" on the hem of the kimono, which we hold with both hands to manage the "fuki" (padded hem). This is the difficulty of foot puppeteering for female roles.

There are also times in foot puppeteering where you hardly move at all.

In a way, that's even more difficult.

Because you are the legs staying perfectly still. It's grueling. You have to hold the legs of a sitting puppet perfectly still, and since your own legs are tucked under the puppet, you can't let them shift. All the while, you're clenching your teeth and dripping with sweat.

My master often gave me roles that required staying still. The legs of the protagonist Choemon in "Katsuragawa Renri no Shigarami." The legs of Takeda Katsuyori in "Honcho Nijushiko"...

He would say, "You must hold these still legs. This is your training." At the time, I didn't understand and wondered why he wouldn't let me do moving legs; I grew quite frustrated with it.

But he would say, "You can do moving legs anytime. Just keep holding the still legs."

It sounds like a Zen riddle (laughs).

It is. But in fact, it proved useful later on.

When the puppet's legs are still, the puppeteer must also be perfectly still. You cannot move. So, it's a matter of endurance.

I'm impressed you could endure such hardship.

Nowadays, when young trainees come saying they want to do Bunraku puppets, if I tell them they'll be doing legs for ten years...

They run away (laughs).

Exactly. The pay is low, too (laughs). So I don't say much about that and just invite them by saying, "Bunraku is great."

Like saying, "The udon is delicious" (laughs).

The National Theatre has a training program to foster successors, doesn't it?

There is a public recruitment every two years. Men who have graduated from junior high school and are generally 23 or younger can apply. We currently have three trainees; one is a graduate of Kobe University who wants to be a Tayu (chanter). He's 25, so he's starting a bit late.

But he has a good voice. The training lasts two years, during which we give them lessons. For the first six months or so, they have to study all three parts: puppet, Tayu, and Shamisen.

Most trainees are not from Bunraku families, right? Such people are increasing; what is the percentage among all performers?

I believe those from the training program make up about 40% of the total.

In Kabuki, prestigious names are hereditary, so you can't succeed to them unless you're from that family—and conversely, you are expected to succeed to them.

In Bunraku, the current Master Enza Tsuruzawa, who holds a very major name in Shamisen, succeeded to it despite coming from the training program.

Kinshi (Nozawa) is also from the training program. He was previously named Kinya, but he received the name of the previous Master Kinshi. He's the first from the training program to reach that level.

That must be very motivating for future trainees.

Yes. It depends on your own effort. Whether it's puppeteering, chanting, or Shamisen, it's a world of merit. No matter who your parents are, if you are unskilled, no one will recognize you.

Master Tamao, it's been over 50 years since you entered the profession, hasn't it?

Yes, it's been 52 years.

The three of you from the same generation—Kazuo-san, Master Tamao, and Kanjuro-san—are at the top.

Amazing. The three stars!

Yes, I am truly grateful. A lot has happened over these 50 years (laughs). Succeeding to the name Tamao II in 2015 at the age of 61 was a major milestone.

Since that succession, I feel that "the real devotion starts now."

It's quite mysterious how, once someone succeeds to a name, they seem to acquire the dignity and artistry associated with it.

Because the previous Tamao was so great. My mother even used to say, "Why don't you just stay as Tamame for the rest of your life?" (laughs).

The opportunity arose, and I was allowed to succeed to the name. To take on a master's name means you are constantly chasing after them, so it's a lifetime of training.

My master often said, "You must watch even those who aren't good." He told me to just "watch" from the wings of the stage. No matter who you are, it's necessary to constantly watch the stage. Quite a few young people today don't watch the stage. Some are always fiddling with their smartphones (laughs).

Just like in a classroom (laughs).

Nowadays, you can easily watch Bunraku videos on a smartphone. But from a video, you can only understand the superficial procedures and forms. I want people to watch the live stage and sense the subtle movements, the timing, and the breathing.

That's true.

Do you have all the words of the Joruri memorized in your head?

I have them in there to some extent. Occasionally, while the Tayu is chanting the lines for my character, I'll have a momentary lapse, and the hidari-zukai (left-arm puppeteer) will whisper "Nii-san" (older brother) to me, and I'll think, "Oh, that's right, I have to move it here."

But then, puppeteers don't need to speak the lines themselves. The Tayu chants them for us. In that respect, it must be tough for actors.

Actors can create their own timing as they please, so it's fine (laughs).

I used to only look at the puppets, but recently I've started noticing various things like the Tayu's chanting. I think, "It would be interesting if I could learn these turns of phrase and use them in everyday life." There are so many beautiful words, aren't there?

There certainly are.

Sometimes I think I'd like to try playing a woman who sobs like that.

I also love kimono, so I watch and think, "Oh, so that's how you can coordinate a kimono."

Also, the Tayu's kendai (bookstand) is like an exhibition of maki-e lacquerware. Everyone is so particular about them, and I think, "Wow, amazing!" Even the tassels are incredibly elaborate. There are a mountain of things to see.

The audience has to watch the yuka (narrator's platform) and the stage. Bunraku is quite busy, isn't it?

Bunraku has regular customers who say, "I go to listen." The "Yama no Dan" (The Mountain Scene) of "Imoseyama Onna Teikin" (Mount Imo and Mount Se: An Exemplary Tale of Womanly Virtue) in the May Tokyo performance is also a large-scale play. The Tayu and Shamisen players appear not only on the kamite (stage left) but also on the shimote (stage right), and the scene progresses through their dialogue. I think it will be a very powerful stage with them competing against each other.

That's the double yuka.

The Yoshino River flows through the middle of the stage.

The kamite is "Seyama" and the shimote is "Imoyama," and they chant from both sides.

They have a dialogue from left and right.

Does the Tayu chant it?

Yes. It's a very beautiful stage.

Ms. Dan, you are knowledgeable about painting, music, and kimono, but did you start watching Bunraku because you felt you "had to see it as an actor"?

It had always been on my mind. I thought Bunraku might be for us what Shakespeare's plays are for people over there—something you simply must know.

About 10 years ago, a friend started watching Bunraku, so I began going to the Tokyo performances with them, and I got really hooked.

That's wonderful to hear.

I've been watching for about 40 years now, so I saw the sewamono (contemporary-life plays) of the previous Tamao-shisho and Minosuke-shisho. Also, I consider it a personal treasure to have seen the "Chushingura" and "Imoseyama" of Tsudayu-shisho (the 4th) and Koshijidayu-shisho (the 4th).

That's marvelous.

When I think that the current Tamao-shisho was always there as the hidari-zukai back then, I wish I had watched more closely.

Bunraku has maintained a tradition that is different from the keren (stage tricks) of Kabuki. From what I've seen, Tsudayu, Koshijidayu, the previous Tamao-shisho, and Minosuke-shisho, who is still active, were the masters of the Showa and Heisei eras. Currently, we have Kazuo-shisho, Kanjuro-shisho, and Tamao-shisho.

The Reiwa era begins tomorrow; what do you think about the mid-career and young puppeteers we can look forward to?

Quite a few young people are coming up. I used to perform in both the first and second parts of the program, but recently there are days when I only appear in one. It feels a bit lonely, but now there are younger people like Tamasuke-kun and Tamashi-kun, who are about twelve years younger than me. Handling the large puppets really takes a toll on the shoulders and hips, so I'm thinking of leaving it to them.

Tamao-shisho, you are now at the top of the tachiyaku (male roles), and you have your own direct disciples as well as entrusted disciples from the previous generation like Tamaka-san and others. Besides that, you also hold roles in the Association and serve as a kowari committee member.

What is "kowari"?

Kowari is the job of deciding the casting for the hidari-zukai, ashi-zukai (leg puppeteer), kaisaku (assistant), and kojo (announcements). I do it with Kanjuro-san; we write the name of the omo-zukai (main puppeteer) in the order of the puppet's appearance in a ledger called the "Ningyo Kowaricho," and then we note the hidari-zukai on the top right and the ashi-zukai on the bottom left.

So you decide who does what for which puppet.

For example, for the April performance of "Chushingura," we write down and decide all the puppet appearances from the Daijo (prologue) to the fourth act.

Depending on the scene, there are times when you perform in kurogo (black costume) with a hood, and times when you perform with your face visible.

The kojo announcement says at the beginning, "The puppets will be performed in dezukai (unhooded)." Important scenes often feature dezukai where the face is shown.

Does Tamao-san ever appear in kurogo?

Of course.

For example, in the first Daijo of "Chushingura," all the omo-zukai are in kurogo.

At the beginning of a story, for instance, in "Chushingura," the face is usually not shown until the Daijo and the second act.

Especially a toshi-kyogen (full-length play) is very long. So, if you show your face from the very beginning, it's a bit...

The person gets tired (laughs).

No, isn't it because the audience would end up looking at the puppeteer?

I see, so it's to keep the focus on the puppet.

For the character Daihanji Kiyozumi that I'm playing in the upcoming "Imoseyama Onna Teikin," Tamase-kun, who is now an entrusted disciple, will perform the Daijo in kurogo. In that way, we have young puppeteers do the same role in kurogo for their training, and I might show my face and perform from the dezukai part onwards.

So that happens too.

If you look closely, you can tell, "Tamaka-san, who was just playing Hayano Kanpei, has now moved to the left of Tamao-shisho."

Also, "Ichisuke-san is on the left of Minosuke-shisho." Ichisuke-san looks so joyful doing the left side. I feel the strength of the master-disciple relationship in those moments. When I see someone who plays great roles as an omo-zukai assisting their master on the left, I think, "How beautiful. I want a disciple like that" (laughs).

I heard that back when you were Tamame, the previous Tamao-shisho once assisted you on the left.

During a workshop for young puppeteers, my master said, "I'll do the left for you," and he assisted on the left for Kumagai in "Ichinotani Futaba Gunki" (Chronicle of the Battle of Ichinotani). Also for Matsuomaru in "Terakoya" (The Village School). That was heavy! (laughs).

Did you get nervous?

My master would pull firmly where one would normally loosen up. When I tried to move forward, he would stop me firmly from the left. He was saying, "Your timing is too fast." It was a great learning experience.

I find it so mysterious how three people can move a single puppet so smoothly.

The three-person manipulation is indeed a clever system. But it takes 30 or 40 years to become capable of being an omo-zukai for lead or supporting roles.

That's the deep and interesting part. It's not something that can be done overnight.

From now on, in addition to the stage, you will be teaching the next generation. And then there is the matter of popularization.

Yes. Currently, we are holding "Bunraku Appreciation Classes" for students in both Tokyo and Osaka.

Keio's Chutobu Junior High School often went to the performances.

It would be good not just to watch, but also to have them try chanting a bit of Gidayu.

I think it's necessary to convey the charm effectively.

I look forward to your continued support of Bunraku.

Likewise. Hearing your stories today seems to have given me even more to look forward to.

(Recorded on April 30, 2019, at Kyoto Kempton Kiyomizu)