Discussing Keio Rugby

In the past, Takeshi Nozawa of Keio (a forward when they won the 1999 University Championship, currently a director at Yamakawa Shuppansha) used to say, "I'm a Keio right-winger." In that sense, I'm a "Waseda right-winger" (laughs). Since I was a child, I only intended to apply to Waseda, but when I was in my second year of high school, I saw the Keio team from Toshihiro Matsunaga's year as captain (1984), and I thought about applying.

They won the Keio-Meiji and Waseda-Keio rivalry matches to win the Taikosen league. Then, in the University Championship final, the match where they narrowly lost to Doshisha due to a "phantom try" from a forward pass was extremely moving. And the following year, when I was a high school senior taking entrance exams, Keio became the national champion.

That was an amazing era.

In the end, I went to Waseda, but those feelings stayed with me. Even watching documentaries broadcast during my college days, they were doing intense practice covered in mud. I always wondered why those smart Keio people were working so desperately hard.

Then, I interviewed members from around the time they were national champions and wrote a book called "Keio Rugby: A Century of Joy" (2000). While thinking about what attracted me during high school, I felt that the existence of a person named Akio Ueda was incredibly significant.

Both of you received guidance from Mr. Ueda, didn't you?

That's right. The first time I came into contact with Keio Rugby was also around 1984. I was in elementary school, but my father was also a Keio graduate and loved rugby, and I admired the "tackle of the soul."

The tackle of a very small flanker named Hiroshi Tashiro was so cool that I wrote "6" on my badminton racket back then (laughs). From that time on, I wanted to play rugby at Keio.

I could name all the Keio members. I remember a few from Waseda too.

The front row of Hashimoto (Tatsuya), Gosho (Shinichi), and Nakano (Tadayuki).

I was about three years old in '84 and '85, so I don't remember (laughs). Around the time Keio was strengthening for its 100th anniversary (1999), I was surprised to suddenly get a phone call in high school from Mr. Ueda, who had been appointed as manager (general manager) for the second time. At first, I was like, "Who is this?" but he said, "It's Ueda from Keio Rugby."

I had originally intended to go to Waseda, but with that one call from Mr. Ueda, I suddenly wanted to go to Keio.

What kind of words did Mr. Ueda use to persuade you?

It was something like, "I'm waiting for you." Or "Let's make it strong together." Letters would also arrive suddenly; he was good at that kind of thing.

Keio at that time (entering in 2000) gave the impression of having a glamorous lineup of members rather than being gritty.

Quite a few players were coming from Kokugakuin Kugayama.

That's right. People like Mr. Makino (Kenji) were there. Shinsaku-san (Takada) is also from Kugayama, right?

Mr. Ueda had the power to change high school students who were aiming for other universities to Keio. I think he was someone who revolutionized the system quite a bit.

First, Mr. Ueda changed the style. It was a bit of a shock when the school uniform changed to a blazer, but Mr. Ueda thought that was the international standard. Regarding recruiting, it was groundbreaking how he effectively utilized the AO entrance exams at the Shonan Fujisawa Campus (SFC).

That's true.

The idea of trying to win through systems, not just play, was revolutionary.

However, I received a story from Mr. Akiyoshi Nakajima, a senior of Mr. Ueda's who served as the last president of Kanebo, saying, "Mr. Ikushima, if you are going to write about Keio rugby, I want you to record that the intense practice was started by my classmate Kenichi Toh (captain in 1972)."

I think Mr. Ueda changed the system while building on that history, and in this way, left behind talent like Mr. Kanazawa and Mr. Hirose at Keio.

After the 1985 victory, a period of stagnation continued, and the time when Keio was just starting to change was right in the middle of my four years as a student. In my first and second years, we were 6th or 7th in the Taikosen league. We really couldn't beat Aoyama Gakuin in the opening match. We lost to Meiji, Nittai, and Tsukuba, managed to beat Todai for the time being, and then for some reason, we could beat Waseda (laughs).

That was in '96, when Mr. Moriuchi (Yusaku) was captain.

For some reason, a struggling Keio would beat an undefeated Waseda. The next year too.

However, while Keio was said to have intense practice and strict seniority, I felt it was different once I entered. Masato Hayashi joined as a full-time head coach in '96 and introduced Australian-style coaching. I think that changed things all at once.

And with Mr. Ueda's passion and his power to execute, which could seem somewhat self-righteous, he pushed through reforms while brushing aside surrounding opinions, so I think it blossomed when I was in my third and fourth years (winning the University Championship in my fourth year, 1999).

I really felt Mr. Ueda's obsession with victory and his attitude of sticking to what he thought was right.

In my time, Mr. Hayashi did almost everything on the field. Mr. Ueda would come occasionally and say things like, "Hey, are you doing it right?" and wasn't on the field that much.

Once I joined, Matt's (Head Coach Hayashi) cutting-edge coaching theory was a lot of fun. Even though they had won the championship the previous year with orthodox rugby, that year he said we would imitate an Australian team called the Brumbies, and we were doing an attack where we kept holding the ball and didn't kick. It was completely different rugby, and it was very interesting.

I didn't think so much about it at the time, but now that I'm on the supporting side, I feel that things changed because Mr. Ueda was there. Students only focus on Mr. Hayashi's coaching, but even though Mr. Ueda was the manager, he properly entrusted the coaching.

But because he was the manager, he took the responsibility himself. However, once he entrusted it, he left it to them. It's very disrespectful to say he was "very capable," but I feel he was that kind of person.

Mr. Ueda was always in a state of overflowing heat, and I think he devoted the same passion he had when reading the news on Fuji TV to making Keio Rugby strong.

He was appointed manager for the second time starting in 1994, and bringing in Mr. Hayashi as a full-time coach in a world where weekend-only coaches were the norm was also groundbreaking.

He was the first full-time coach at Keio.

I think Mr. Ueda was a genius of management. But it's a fond memory how he seriously talked about when his daughter, who was studying at the Yochisha Elementary School, would go to university, saying, "I'm thinking of recruiting good players from her year so they can win the championship when my daughter is a senior." He was someone who had a lot of that kind of childish passion in a good sense.

I have heard that the very gritty, intense practice of Keio rugby began to change around the time Keitaro Matsumoto was captain (1995). There was something called "mawashi," which was like running as a punishment, and Mr. Matsumoto did away with that.

But we still did hard practice in my time. However, the difference from the old days was that the reasons had become clear. In the old days, during practice after a match, if a coach said, "We couldn't run today because the passing was bad," Keio's response would be, "Then let's do tackles in the in-goal." Why do tackles when the "passing was bad and we couldn't run"? (laughs).

Those kinds of things gradually disappeared and became more rational, but the practice was incredibly tough.

It was tough. Especially in my time, the strategy was to keep the ball, so we ran quite a lot...

After the 100th anniversary, someone went to Australia and saw a match between the Hurricanes and the Brumbies, and apparently the Brumbies just kept passing the ball for the first five minutes. Then Mr. Hayashi was like, "This is it."

The analysis of the intense practice before that is interesting. Members from the 80s, who are now prominent business figures, say they were able to endure the intense practice precisely because they felt that rugby would end at university.

They had a subconscious feeling that "after graduation, I'll compete through work," and thought, "If I can't endure this much, I won't be able to keep going after this." That's why many people say it was a breeze once they joined a company (laughs).

I see.

Until the 80s, there were almost no people from Keio who played rugby at the forefront of the corporate world, were there? Mr. Murai (Daijiro) (FB in '84), who went to Marubeni, was selected for Japan, and he mentioned that when work was over, he would train by running back from Takehashi to Azabu.

Then, Junichi Inagaki (class of 1978), who was the director of the Japan national team during the Eddie Japan era, said, "This is a bit sad, I want them to continue even after graduating from Keio," and created the Suntory rugby club to present it as one of the options. He seems to have reached out to many juniors as well. I feel that Mr. Inagaki's passion for wanting his Keio juniors to continue rugby led to the current Suntory and then to Japan.

The turning point for Keio was indeed the mid-90s. Until the early 90s, there was a sense of martyring oneself to the aesthetics of history, with intense practice and frequent use of high punts in matches. High punts have disappeared now.

That's true.

In my memory, since the mid-70s, Keio already had an image of high punts. But in reality, the generation that was number one in Japan showed wonderful rugby that developed the ball. However, because coaching as a system had not been established, it became difficult in terms of talent, and I think they had no choice but to rely on intense practice.

As expected, with Mr. Ueda taking charge of coaching again from the late 90s, recruiting changed, and they gained an advantage by hiring a full-time coach. From there, practice methods also changed in a theoretical direction.

That's right. But even now, it's natural that you have to do a certain amount of tough practice. I think rugby itself is that kind of sport to begin with. There are tough things during a match, and situations don't turn out the way you think they will.

Therefore, while we teach theory, if we don't include unreasonable things in practice, players won't be able to respond in a match. We have to work while balancing that well.

For young people today, there must be ways to make them do those unreasonable things.

Students increasingly can't do things unless there's a reason. So, it's very difficult. Like explaining the reason why they have to do something unreasonable.

At that time, I think trust—being thought of as "if this person says so"—is very important.

Finding the right balance is difficult.

Yes. There are various reasons why current students play rugby.

But strangely enough, isn't Eddie Japan the epitome of unreasonableness?

That's true.

Conversely, maybe only adults can endure it (laughs).

The rugby match itself is like that. It's unreasonable, or rather, it doesn't go as expected. So, the premise is that there's no point in practicing only for what's expected. You come to understand that when you reach the national team.

Test matches are the ultimate example; you leave Japan and go to an environment you don't know at all. There are various unreasonable things with referees too, so how you fight within that is very important.

When you're in Japan, the community is limited, and if you have the misunderstanding that "we are the standard of the world," I think you can't endure unreasonableness.

It was probably from a little before Mr. Hirose's time that Japan national team players started coming out of Keio one after another.

That's right. Maybe from the generation of Mr. Kurihara (Toru), Mr. Nozawa, and Mr. Uriu (Yasuharu).

When I was a senior, the Top League was just created. That was one big thing, and I think it became a motivation to continue rugby at the forefront. Until then, there was an undeniable local feel with the Kanto Corporate League and such.

It means the options increased. Whether to work properly, whether to play rugby while working while considering a career after retirement, or the form of professional contracts also emerged.

Since Mr. Inagaki was the one who worked hard to create the Top League, it probably expanded in that sense too. Eddie-san (Eddie Jones) and Keio are close through Mr. Hayashi and Mr. Inagaki. Eddie-san often gives guidance on the Keio grounds as well.

That's right. You also visited us last year.

It's true that compared to the past, the path to the Top League has been established, so some people go there, but I think the general framework is still shifting toward work. Even if they receive an offer, many students weigh it against their future and choose a job that lasts until age 60. Since there are many alumni active in the business world, I think there is a sense at Keio that such a path is 'cool.'

Hirose was like that too, and I think the people who are professional players now will create the path for life after retirement in the future. If that happens, I think more people will think, 'There's a path like that too,' and choose to go that way.

A role model for success.

Globally, professionalization began in '95, and the reason Japan couldn't catch up at first was probably because they were playing rugby within a corporate culture. It was like amateurs fighting against professionals.

Eddie completely changed that mindset, didn't he?

Yes. Exactly. Everyone in Japanese rugby thought, "We can't beat professional players," or "We can't beat fast players or big players." Eddie changed that.

The young players on the current Japan national team now play with the mindset that they can win as a matter of course.

As a culmination, there was the 2015 tournament in England, but I feel we were able to make good preparations for about three and a half years leading up to it.

The training methods must have changed considerably as well.

For example, even the way a day's practice was structured changed. Previously, it was two sessions, just a distinction between morning and afternoon, but the first training camp had four sessions, starting at 5:30, 10:30, 2:30, and 6:00—four practices a day.

The time for a single practice was condensed to an hour or 45 minutes, but in exchange, the quality was raised significantly. Eddie's idea was to practice intensely for a short time and acquire good habits rather than practicing long and slowly. At first, the days felt incredibly long (laughs).

Moreover, 'Sleep' was scheduled for 9:00 in the morning.

Forced morning naps (laughs). Everyone was bewildered by that, weren't they?

Yes. But Eddie was someone who thought about nutrition, training, and recovery in a very well-balanced way. Because of that, people stopped getting injured.

Eddie is an open person, so you can find things like his training methods on the internet immediately.

However, how to use that in university rugby is very difficult. I think that's where a coach's skill comes in. Everyone has the same knowledge, but how do you approach each individual? Even if it works for Japan, the same reaction won't necessarily occur at Keio.

At Keio, you can really feel the effort to manage things through systems. They took on the very groundbreaking challenge of turning the alumni organization into a general incorporated association (Keio Rugby Club, established in 2018). They are also very proactive compared to other universities in collaborating with corporations.

For example, the Sado Rice Project, which I also helped with as an event. The training camp dormitory received Sado rice from JA Sado. Students are at a growing age, so the cost of rice is no small matter. Seeking collaboration with local governments and companies in that way is very typical of Keio. I think such a backup system is very advanced.

The Keio team runs so much that everyone used to be skin and bones. Then a powerful team like Teikyo University emerged, and the importance of physical strength became a given in university rugby. Thinking, "To beat Teikyo, we first have to make our bodies bigger," we had nutritionists come in, but it didn't show any effect at all.

In the end, the only meal they were eating at the dormitory was dinner after practice. That meant we could only manage one meal. First, they wouldn't eat breakfast. For lunch, they didn't have money so they'd go to a convenience store, and only at night would they eat properly at the dorm.

Since that was no good at all, we decided to serve and manage everything at the dormitory. Then, we ran out of rice, so we asked Sado City for their cooperation. Over the past few years, the physiques of the Keio players have changed quite a bit.

In any case, every university has spent the last 10 years trying to beat Teikyo. I think Keio has moved in the direction it should. There are various battles that take place off the pitch as well.

Also, what I envy about Keio is that the club members have many opportunities to study with general students. One reason why support from Waseda students has decreased is that the Tokorozawa campus in Saitama Prefecture for the School of Sport Sciences was built, and fewer students in the Athletic Association attend the main campus. It's sad when interaction between general students and Athletic Association students disappears. Keio is blessed in that regard, so I want them to make use of it.

In addition, if classmates from Chutobu Junior High School, Keio Futsubu School, Keio Senior High School, Shiki Senior High School, and SFC Junior and Senior High School show up, support will increase. To keep rugby as Keio's star sport, I think they must, of course, be competing for the championship.

However, when it comes to aiming for the championship, recruiting is what's important. It's tough to compete with Teikyo or Tokai. There are differences in the entrance exam systems of each university and the backup systems after enrollment.

It seems the timing for decisions is getting earlier and earlier.

I really think Keio is fighting well within that environment. I can imagine the hardships of the coaching staff. A slight edge leads to a championship. Mr. Ueda was very good at creating that slight first-mover advantage.

In today's world where information is overflowing, how do you create an edge? That applies not only to recruiting but also to systems and playing styles. I want Keio to win with gritty play and smart strategy.

I think Keio players are smart. Akihito Yamada (2007 graduate, Japan national team) is like this too, but they have an image of how they are going to succeed. I think national team players from Keio are able to look at the whole picture and decide their own position, thinking about what role they have to contribute within these members.

Watching Captain Kei Furuta (School of Medicine) of last year's Keio team at the press conference, I really thought that university rugby is not just about winning. Captain Furuta grew tremendously over this past year.

Yes. He's completely different from when he was an underclassman.

I also believe that university rugby is a place for that kind of human education. I thought you produced a fine individual.

But after losing the last game of last season (University Championship quarterfinal against Waseda, a narrow 19-20 loss), I think it's quite difficult for a student to process that.

No, you're right. But the one who couldn't process it the most was Furuta. I think he had that much at stake. He would never say it publicly, but it seems he was suffering quite a bit in his heart. That might be part of the irrationality of rugby, though.

I agree.

During my four years as head coach, I was always talking to the players about how "Keio rugby should be like this." Rather than coming from above, I tried to make the players think as much as possible.

For example, I would have everyone think about and talk about what "Keio tradition" is. What exactly is it? By making them think about such things, I hoped they would sense that it has continued for 120 years and feel proud of it.

Nowadays, it's trendy for university teams to pick up trash and post it on Facebook. But I think it's cool to be able to do such things naturally. I want that to become ingrained in the players.

In that context, Furuta was in a position where he had to think more while exercising leadership, so I think he became able to act in the way Mr. Ikushima praised. I didn't do anything, though.

No, no, it's because of the guidance from the coaching staff. But there are more people like you two who remain involved in rugby after graduation. Shinsaku Takada (1999 captain, FW; currently at Mitsubishi Estate) is also connecting business and rugby.

Yes. Certainly.

That's true. What's interesting is that even if the level isn't the top, people are playing rugby in various places. I think at the core, everyone really loves it.

At Keio, in terms of leadership, the range of motivation among members is wide, so it was difficult. At Teikyo or Tokai, they come to play rugby, so if they don't succeed there, they can't see their next world. But at Keio, even if you don't work hard at rugby, you can get a job at a good company, so honestly, there are some people who don't place much importance on rugby.

Uniting those people was very difficult, and I feel like I still haven't found the answer to that within myself.

In the past, the manager was only there on weekends, so the captain was the center of the team. That has also changed now, though.

For example, when doing something, it's different whether the players perceive it as the "will of the head coach" or whether they do it thinking "we decided this ourselves," even if the head coach guided them.

I placed great importance on talking with the captain and the leadership group. I wouldn't budge on things that were absolutely non-negotiable, but for things I could concede, I tried to let the players say them as much as possible. In the end, if they do it thinking it came from them, they have more motivation and responsibility.

Coaches today are required to have such "human skills." For example, I think Eddie has tremendous leadership, but he actually divided responsibility a lot. There were parts he left to the players.

There were many specialists among the coaches too. For the first two years, I was the captain of Eddie's national team, but that was a period for building a certain base, so there was a lot of top-down direction from Eddie. Reform was necessary.

But when Michael Leitch became captain next, his background was completely different, so he started incorporating various things. And in the very end, when they didn't listen to what Eddie said, they beat South Africa. On the last play.

So, the style of leadership changes depending on the period, and the relationship between the captain and the manager changes too. I think it's the same for Kanazawa-san.

Being able to leave things to the players is, I think, a sign of maturity as an organization.

At first, you drop things down from the top to a certain extent to decide what to do, and then gradually let the players decide. Even during matches, the manager is up in the stands and leaves it to the field. I think that's the interesting part of rugby.

The World Cup in Japan is finally approaching (opening September 20).

Of course, they have to win. I think there's a possibility they can reach the top eight. The rest is whether they can make good preparations from here.

Honestly, I feel the members could be a bit more fixed, but basically, I think they are getting stronger, and they have the experience of competing against the world with the Sunwolves. After that, I think it's a matter of how to use the home advantage.

In the previous tournament in England, it was physically far away, so we couldn't communicate much with Japan. But this time it's in Japan, so they can contact friends immediately, which might reduce communication between teammates. I wonder how that will turn out.

Cutting off information. That's interesting. I think it's important how we increase support by September 20. This is because I believe a country's rugby strength includes the power of its fans.

In the 2003 semi-final, when New Zealand and Australia played, the Australians all sang "Waltzing Matilda" with all their might to drown out the All Blacks' traditional "Haka." At the 2011 tournament in New Zealand, I saw elementary school students practicing drop kicks on their way to school in the morning. Seeing that, I thought, "This is amazing, we can't compete with this."

Looking at how rugby is rooted like that, I think public relations activities to make everyone enjoy and help Japan win are extremely important. In any case, it's important to increase the number of Japan fans.

Akihito Yamada will be there from Keio.

Unlike the previous tournament, they have been getting results, so every country is undoubtedly checking Japan. I think it will be very tough to demonstrate their strength in that environment, so I really want them to do their best.

One of the projects I'm doing for the World Cup is called "Scrum Unison," which is about learning the national anthems of the participating countries. I want to spread that.

That's good. They're all great songs.

Exactly. Abroad, the audience often sings songs in the stands or pubs, and I think it would be great if Japanese people could sing too. Japan doesn't really have a culture of singing songs.

In England and Ireland, there are songs they sing at crucial moments.

The English fight song is the spiritual "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot." I'd like to see rugby's song culture take root in Japan too.

Yes. In that sense, it's a project to learn the national anthems of each country on this occasion.

It really is different when you go to Europe. You feel that this is what it means for a stadium to shake.

This year is the 120th anniversary of the club's founding, and we really need Keio to demonstrate its presence. The environment may be tough, but I want Keio to reach the finals of the University Championship once every few years, and to win at least once or twice every 10 years. This is a very un-Waseda-alumnus-like statement (laughs).

But if you are always prepared to win, the chance will surely come around. Actually, last year was a chance.

No, that's exactly right. I really thought, "This is it."

In the semifinals, Keio probably had the advantage over Meiji.

However, being in a position where you can aim for the championship is very important. While there are aspects of a match's outcome that are beyond one's control, I believe that if they continue to prepare for victory, the moment of joy will come again.

I want Keio players to find a sense of purpose and coolness in the fact that they aren't playing rugby because it's "all they have," but because they chose it from among many options.

And ultimately, I think the essence of Keio is breaking down what exists to challenge new things, so I want them to keep taking on new challenges.

That reminds me of a story about Akiyoshi Nakajima. Even when he was injured as a student, he thought it was stylish to go see a play at the Kabuki-za theater in his school uniform with his arm in a sling. Hearing that, I thought, "That's so Keio" (laughs).

That's why I think it's important to play rugby while also acquiring a broad education.

I want Keio Rugby to clearly show its "color." Of course I'm happy if they win, but if they can play the kind of rugby that stays in everyone's hearts—where people say, "That was the kind of rugby Keio played this year"—then they can take pride in that.

I really look forward to seeing that kind of rugby.

Last year's team, the forwards really showed their character. Numbers 4, 7, and 8 just kept working hard. That earnest appearance felt very much like Keio to me.

The reason I care so much about Keio is because of the connections I made with various people when I wrote "Keio Rugby: A Century of Joy." It is a blessing that the connections from that time continue today, which is something you don't often see in other sports.

What I feel through these human connections is that Keio alumni and students share high social skills. My desire to write a book about the members from '84 and '85 persists because there are so many charming individuals, including Captain Matsunaga, Tadayuki Nakano (the captain when they became national champions), and Katsuo Fukuzawa (formerly Yamakoshi, a forward during the '85 championship), who became a drama director at TBS.

Seeing the son (Shunsuke Wakabayashi) of Toshiyasu Wakabayashi (the '86 captain and winger), who was a key member of the national championship team, playing for Keio now really touches my heart.

The reputation for having high social skills is not something created by current students, so it is something they must inherit. Otherwise, 20 or 30 years from now, people might say that Keio Rugby isn't anything special.

I hope they inherit the Keio spirit while also showing new sides of themselves.