The Power of "American Comics"

When I was a university student, I was in a very niche club called the Keio University Tokusatsu Film Research Society. While most members were fans of Tsuburaya Productions or Toei's transformation heroes, I liked Western monsters and heroes. It was a very minor culture back then, so I never imagined the day would come when I'd be talking about American comics at my alma mater (laughs).

I feel like I grew up right when American comic book movies were becoming popular. The first one I saw was "X-Men" (2000) when I was in middle school. From there, I saw Batman's "The Dark Knight Trilogy" (directed by Christopher Nolan, 2005–), and I got hooked, thinking, "This is deep; it's not just a simple hero story."

Also, my husband is American and he's incredibly knowledgeable (laughs). No matter what we watch, he says things like, "In the original comic, it was like this," so I end up watching everything from both Marvel and DC.

Additionally, during my time in graduate school, I wrote my master's thesis on the American comic artist Art Spiegelman, so I've read a bit of comics as well.

I like American comic book movies, but I don't know them that deeply. So, for this occasion, I bought three translated volumes of the original comics to do some prep work (laughs).

They're expensive, aren't they? About 3,000 yen per volume. Originally in America, each issue is much thinner, but in Japan, they're sold as collected editions.

The number of translations has only increased recently. They still don't sell that much, so the unit price remains high.

But they're all-color and quite luxurious.

When I was a child, foreign dramas, movies, and cartoons were broadcast quite often on Japanese TV. That's how I saw the famous "Batman" (1966) starring Adam West.

I read the translation of "Spider-Man" for the first time in middle school and felt it really suited me. At the time, Japanese manga was all about sports, delinquents, or rom-coms (laughs). After I joined the company, Sony ended up buying a film studio, and our company handled the promotion. The blockbuster from Sony Pictures at that time was "Spider-Man" (2002).

The one with Tobey Maguire.

However, since there weren't many people in the company who knew much about Spider-Man, I was suddenly put in charge of the campaign. Actually, I was the one who had Shido Nakamura dress up as Spider-Man (laughs).

Why is "Spider-Man" your favorite?

Basically, that protagonist has a life where everything he does backfires. I felt that was somehow similar to myself (laughs). A hero who worries about how to balance a date with his girlfriend, a part-time job, and protecting the town—there were no heroes like that in Japan. I could empathize with that.

While Spider-Man has a lot of complexes, he also has the self-esteem of being a superhero. Middle schoolers are creatures who live between self-esteem and complexes, so that's why I got hooked. Things you get hooked on in middle school, you generally like for the rest of your life (laughs).

It's nice that he doesn't feel too 'great' or untouchable.

When I was a kid, a short animation called "Uchu Ninja Gomes" was broadcast in Japan. "Fantastic Four" is the same as "Uchu Ninja Gomes," right?

That was on, wasn't it? There were various shows in that time slot, like "Uchu Kaijin Ghost" (Space Ghost).

So I always thought of the "Fantastic Four" as "Uchu Ninja Gomes."

Also, there was a "Spider-Man" manga drawn by Ryoichi Ikegami. I read that at a barbershop, though only the first chapter.

My husband was very excited to tell me that there was a Japanese version of "Spider-Man."

Regarding Japanese "Spider-Man," first there was the Ryoichi Ikegami manga version, and then in the late 70s, Toei and Marvel formed an alliance to create a live-action tokusatsu "Spider-Man" which was broadcast on Tokyo Channel 12 (now TV Tokyo). It's known as the "Toei Spider-Man." Your husband is quite well-informed (laughs).

A Japanese person actually plays the role of Spider-Man, right?

Yes. It was popular. It had a wild premise, like Spider-Man riding a giant robot.

I've seen movies like "Supergirl" (1984) with Faye Dunaway as the witch, and "Batman" (directed by Tim Burton, 1989) with Jack Nicholson as the Joker in theaters.

I also like the merchandise and buy quite a bit. I once bought Batman shampoo in the UK that looked exactly like a realistic action figure at first glance.

I like "Batman" too, and I like the Tim Burton version, but I felt those were just heroes and just villains.

When it came to Christopher Nolan's "Batman," I felt the humanity deepened significantly. Every single line of dialogue really hits home. I was very drawn to the image of a hero burdened with conflict—where Harvey Dent is called the "White Knight," while Batman lives as the "Dark Knight," taking the blame for Dent's crimes.

At Halloween, there were people cosplaying as Tim Burton's Batman and the "Dark Knight" version, but with Tim Burton's Batman suit, you can't turn your head. You have to turn your whole body to face an opponent.

How about the current Batman in the DC Universe?

That would be "Justice League" (2017) where Ben Affleck plays Batman. I like it. Like when The Flash asks, "What are your superpowers?" and he answers, "I'm rich."

That's great, isn't it?

While having those slightly comical moments, I can empathize with how he tries his best as a leader, standing up against the powerful Superman alongside other people with superpowers.

いいですよね。

In both "Justice League" and "The Avengers" (2012), when the heroes first gather, they all get along poorly and have trouble uniting. When our company does cross-departmental projects, it's usually just like that (laughs). I can really understand Batman's struggle in bringing them together.

Exactly (laughs).

It's not much different from how we look when we gather to tackle something big.

In both "The Avengers" and "Justice League," there's no reality in the sense that aliens are speaking English, but there's a strange reality in things like how the heroes meet.

That's true. Although it didn't get the best reviews, I quite like "Captain America: Civil War" (2016) as well.

I like it very much.

I like it too. Did it have a bad reputation?

Some said Iron Man wasn't very cool, or that Captain America was overshadowed.

The original comic is a bit more of a political story, but the movie leans more toward an emotional story, so fans of the original might have been dissatisfied.

なんかアイアンマンがあまりかっこよくないとか、「キャプテン・アメリカ」が影が薄いとか言われて。

Since I've always liked American comics, I don't quite understand the current boom. It used to be said that there was only about one American comic fan per prefecture (laughs).

I feel like it spread quite a bit with Sam Raimi's "Spider-Man" (from 2002). That series is often rerun on TV.

But "Hulk" (2003) or "Green Lantern" (2011) weren't big hits, were they? Mr. Sugiyama, you wrote that you like "Green Lantern."

"Green Lantern" is very easy to understand within DC.

My husband really likes "Green Lantern."

What a great husband! "Green Lantern" is a lovable movie. The only thing I can recite from memory in English is the "Green Lantern's Oath" (laughs).

I like "Deadpool." Especially "2" (2018) (laughs).

But seeing so many girls wearing "MARVEL" T-shirts in the city, or events like "Tokyo Comic Con" being held—it's like a dream.

Kids nowadays even have "MARVEL" backpacks. When you ask them, they don't necessarily love Marvel specifically, but they just feel it's cool.

So it's become a fashionable item.

Yes. That's why T-shirts with Spider-Man or Captain America's shield are sold at H&M and other fast-fashion stores. They wear those things, but they aren't geeks.

Do they wear them knowing what they are?

They know to some extent, but if you ask for details, they might only think of "The Avengers" as "a movie with a lot of people in it" (laughs).

分かって着ているのですか。

一応知っているんですけど、詳しく聞くと、『アベンジャーズ』も「たくさんの人がいっぱい出ている」ぐらいにしか思っていなかったりする（笑）。

But in the process of a single culture spreading, that's a good thing.

The stories in American comic book movies are far better crafted than Japanese hero movies.

That's the part that has been misunderstood until now; people thought they were simple stories about machos in tights, but they've started to realize they are surprisingly deep.

That it's not just simple poetic justice.

Conversely, recent Marvel works are connected in all sorts of places, aren't they? If you've seen them all, there's the fun of seeing how "this connects to that," but if not, it's like, "Wait, why did it suddenly turn out like this?"

I went to see "Ant-Man and the Wasp" (2018) last week, and they disappear at the end, right? That connects to the previous film in the Marvel series. The girl sitting next to me asked her boyfriend "Why?", but he hadn't seen it either, so he didn't know.

But even if you don't understand that, it's basically a story about beating up the bad guys (laughs). I certainly think that Marvel business model is amazing, though.

Marvel is more popular now, isn't it?

It used to be DC, but Marvel has so many characters.

DC's Superman and Batman feel more like "The Hero," but lately there have been so many Marvel movies.

Isn't the imagery in DC a bit darker?

I think DC is particularly dragged along by the worldview of "Batman."

Originally, DC comics came first, appearing before World War II. Batman fights crime, and Superman fights Nazis and such. DC's line is that they themselves protect American justice and morals. DC stands for Detective Comics, so basically it's a "detective story" and thus they fight crime.

Marvel, on the other hand, came out around the time of the Vietnam War, so it's counterculture. That's why they look at superheroes from a slightly different perspective.

Reading the original comics this time, I thought they would be more childish, but they are quite complex and difficult. What is the age range of the readers?

I think it's what you'd call young adult. Broadly speaking, American comics were originally based on the premise that "children read them," so when they were sold in general bookstores, sexual and violent content was excluded as much as possible.

However, from the creator's perspective, the story doesn't progress unless you depict sex and violence. So for a while, it became an extremely geeky culture, the kind of thing you'd buy at specialty comic shops.

But on the other hand, they also started doing product development for anime and children partway through. So, I think there are very few Americans who actually read "Batman" in comic form.

The Comics Code regarding sexual and violent depictions was established in the 1950s. A psychiatrist called for regulation, questioning whether any kind of expression in comics should be freely shown to children. Consequently, comics sold in general bookstores and newsstands had to be censored by the Comics Code Authority.

Eventually, things started coming out that were supplied to specialty comic shops without going through the Code Authority, and the distribution systems became different. So, I think they split into the bright hero comics that everyone knows and the dark comics. The Comics Code was abolished in 2011, though.

In Japanese comics, you can see the influence of American comics in things like "Cobra" (Buichi Terasawa), but the Japanese mainstream isn't really like this, is it?

I feel like Japanese manga is more "wet" (sentimental). They start crying easily or insist on "everyone doing their best together." In American comics, it's okay for everyone's assertions to be different.

With the exception of a few, the publishers own the rights to American comics. That's why they keep changing the artists for a single character.

Even if the point of fighting for justice doesn't basically change, the definition of justice they imagine differs depending on the era. For example, in World War II it was defeating the Nazis, and in the 70s it was defeating drug dealers; various senses of justice from the creators' side are reflected. In the case of American comics, for example, a movie creator's interpretation of Iron Man's justice can be different from the comic, and that's fine.

In Japan, because a single author draws it, for example, "Cyborg 009" is always Shotaro Ishinomori's sense of justice. It's like an "I-novel" (autobiographical fiction). That's why it's sentimental.

In Japanese anime, everyone has a transformation scene, don't they?

And they strike a pose (laughs). I wonder if it's Kabuki-esque.

With things like "Sailor Moon," even as a child I thought the transformation time was long (laughs).

On the other hand, Superman wears tights underneath and normal clothes on top. So, he is ultimately the same human being. I think it's closer to the image of taking off a mask rather than a transformation. Japan is all about rainbow power and "Ta-da!"

The early Kamen Riders were cyborgs, after all (laughs).

In American comics, transformation is just for changing one's position. He becomes Superman because he can't stay in a suit. His specs as a superhuman don't change.

Superman is a metaphor for an immigrant—in short, the ideal immigrant. The old "Superman" TV series had the setting: "He is Superman. He hides his identity by calling himself Clark Kent." In other words, Superman's identity is the true one, and Clark Kent is the temporary guise.

Well, there are comics where Clark Kent is the true identity and he took on the guise of Superman to protect justice. However, between Bruce Wayne and Batman, Batman is the true self. But Iron Man is the opposite.

That's the difference between DC and Marvel: DC thinks of them as "being a hero first," while Marvel thinks of them as "being a human first."

In an article in "SCREEN," Mr. Sugiyama, you wrote that it's good that live-action American comic movies are played by first-rate actors.

That's right. Marlon Brando and Gene Hackman appeared in the 1978 "Superman." I think it was great that they cast first-rate actors.

It drills into you that the character is worth being played by such a person. Because Robert Downey Jr. was doing "Iron Man," I thought, "I wonder if 'Iron Man' is interesting." Or Hugh Jackman playing Wolverine ("X-MEN").

Quite famous people play the villains too. Robert Redford is in "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" (2014) as well.

The villain is the key in American comics. I think there have been many great actors since Jack Nicholson's Joker.

I didn't know the word "villain" until very recently; has it been used for a long time?

As American comics became popular, people started calling bad guys "villains," and it has recently become established.

Is it a word used generally?

I wonder. I learned it from American comics. Before that, people used the term "bad guy."

I think the fun is halved if a villain just simply does bad things. In "Avengers: Infinity War" (2018), Thanos thinks about maintaining balance by halving the universe's population, and the reason that's persuasive is precisely because there are actually 7 billion people on Earth now and there's the challenge of how to sustain that in the future. The Joker in "The Dark Knight" is also very persuasive.

Instead of just "I'm going to conquer the world anyway" like in the old days, they have their own motivations.

I know this because I was in the Special Effects Research Club, but what's difficult when making a hero story is the motivation for why the hero goes out of their way to fight for justice. If you have this much power, why not just do whatever you want? (laughs)

That's certainly true.

Evil is the same; for example, when an evil conqueror says, "I will kill foolish humanity and conquer the Earth," if all of humanity dies, who is going to say you are superior? (laughs)

So, they write the part about why justice and evil fight quite thoroughly.

Also, justice and evil sometimes swap places, don't they?

The gray zone between evil and good might be something unexpectedly necessary within human society. How to get closer to good in such a world.

That conflict is human and also interesting, so I think people are drawn to characters who go back and forth between being a villain and a hero.

Three "Avengers" movies are in the top ten hit movies in the world, and "Black Panther" (2018) is also in there. So, everyone worldwide likes American comic movies as much as "Harry Potter" or "Star Wars."

I've heard that they don't hit as big as expected in Japan; is that true?

I wonder. There's no other country in the world where manga and anime are this strong, so there might be a question of how "Wonder Woman" (2017) fares where "Sailor Moon" exists.

China has recently started doing Hollywood movies and they are quite popular. South Korea loves them. The filming location for "Black Panther" was South Korea, wasn't it?

"Black Panther" was interesting.

It was a good movie.

There's a kingdom called Wakanda in Africa, which has a large amount of Vibranium—the metal used to make Captain America's shield and such—and also has ultra-cutting-edge technology.

The view of Africa is changing now, isn't it? What used to be a target for aid is becoming the most advanced place in areas like fintech.

When compared with the real world, the message that "Africa actually has this much potential" was hidden inside "Black Panther," and that was innovative.

Probably "Black Panther" has become the biggest hit movie for Marvel. I wondered how it would do since it's a movie with an all-Black cast, but conversely, that was what was good about it.

Since "Spider-Man" has the image of a "kid hero," they have no choice but to keep changing the actors.

Because he's a high school student.

Andrew Garfield from the previous "The Amazing Spider-Man" (2012) is about the same age as Ninomiya-kun from Arashi. As for Tobey Maguire from the "Spider-Man" series before that (2002–), he's the same age as Hideaki Ito-kun; high school student is impossible for those two now (laughs).

Doesn't "The Amazing Spider-Man" feel somewhat sentimental? The protagonist mopes and worries. I'm looking for a sense of exhilaration, so I wonder what he's worrying about.

Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man is a typical bullied kid, like Nobita-kun, but Andrew Garfield's version represents the struggles of modern youth.

It seems to be a Spider-Man that focuses on the kind of worries a kid like Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg might have. That's why it's a bit complicated and tedious.

It became a bit too realistic.

The millennial feel of Tom Holland's recent Spider-Man ("Spider-Man: Homecoming", 2017) was great. He gets called for a mission by Iron Man and spends the whole time filming himself taking Captain America's shield on his phone, saying things like "Yeah!" I really like that kind of lightness; I thought it was a fresh character.

I thought it was perhaps the closest to the comics.

It is close. In the Tom Holland version, it's a world where other heroes exist, and there's this impatience where a kid hero feels he has to do something. The Flash in "Justice League" was also quite timid and good.

That's true. I'm always thinking I want more women to appear. Even in "Civil War," it feels like 80% are men. The upcoming "Captain Marvel" (scheduled for release in 2019) is a woman, but otherwise, Marvel only has Black Widow and Scarlet Witch. I'd be happy if more strong and cool female characters appeared.

In terms of direction, I think it is gradually becoming more diverse in terms of race as well.

Because America is a young country, it doesn't have ethnic heroic tales like Yamato Takeru or the Arthurian legends. So, they subconsciously crave those things.

Superman was the world's first superhero, but in a very American way, they suddenly created the strongest hero. Since any hero coming after him couldn't compete no matter what they did, Batman was born as an ordinary human against Superman, and Wonder Woman exists as a woman against a man. They either scaled down the specs from Superman or created heroes on contrasting axes.

That is certainly true.

What I like is in the comics, where Batman lectures Superman, saying, "Protecting the peace of the Earth and cleaning up this city mean different things. Don't bring your justice here." I thought, that's true.

As a conflict for recent heroes, there are many patterns where they end up being disliked by local people as a result of protecting the Earth from enemies coming from outside.

Ultimately, the conflict between Batman and Superman happens because while Superman is fighting General Zod, he destroys the Wayne Enterprises building, and employees die ("Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice", 2016).

In "Civil War" as well, a battle occurs in a place called Sokovia, families die, and Iron Man is directly confronted by the bereaved families, which makes him suffer greatly.

Those parts are quite realistic. In "Ultraman," they fight giant monsters in the middle of the city; they defeat the monster, but is it okay to destroy the town? Modern American comic movies are properly considering that.

I like Captain America's line in the comics: "When politics gets involved in justice, nothing good comes of it." If politics decides a certain religious state is evil, do we have to fight them? No, that's not right. Justice should be left to individual conscience. Captain America values freedom over regulation.

Tony Stark (Iron Man) thinks that maintaining order is more important, so we should follow the law. If you read it carefully, it's not a story about which one is right or wrong.

"Ant-Man" (2015) is well-made. At first, I thought it might be boring because he just gets smaller.

It's quite impressive. It's amazing they can make it that interesting just with the concept of getting smaller.

The idea that if you can get smaller, you can also get bigger is also interesting.

Come to think of it, there are almost no superheroes who get bigger besides Giant-Man (Ant-Man). In Japan, there are many like Ultraman. And monsters don't appear either.

Does it feel a bit like cheating?

Another term used for superheroes is "crime fighter." After all, many American heroes fight criminals.

Kamen Rider doesn't use a Rider Kick on a bank robber, but Spider-Man fights not only villains but also purse snatchers. Conversely, it might be because Japan is just that safe.

Also, unlike Japanese tokusatsu shows, they don't emphasize finishing moves much. They just simply punch and kick.

American comics have a sense of believing in human power. Batman goes through trial and error to create various gadgets, and Spider-Man improves his costume.

It's not that you become a hero just by gaining superpowers; you work hard to get closer to being a being with superpowers. Instead of a sudden "Super Punch!", they defeat enemies in human-like ways.

There is a theory that the spirit of a passage from Kennedy's famous public speaking—"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"—exists in American comics.

Furthermore, superpowers are called "gifts," and the standard rule is that those who possess them should work hard for the nation.

It's like noblesse oblige.

Even with "007," he's a civil servant, so why does he protect the world on a civil servant's salary? I can understand Golgo 13 because he's a freelancer (laughs).

In Japan, there are almost no characters who serve the country like that. In America, there's the Pledge of Allegiance where children are made to say "I pledge to serve the country" to the flag every morning at assembly from a young age.

I feel like there's a strong yearning toward serving one's country.

What direction will American comic movies take in the future?

Since around "The Avengers" or "Suicide Squad" (2016), people in their 20s have started liking them. If these people continue to watch this genre, I think there's quite a market. DC seems to be heading in a brighter direction, and I'd be happy if they start competing with Marvel.

I think Marvel has had more funny movies lately. "Guardians of the Galaxy" (2014) and "Deadpool" are like that too.

They are heroes, but I think comic relief elements will also increase.

They are good at that. There might be fewer things like that in Japanese hero movies.

I think American comics are interesting because even superheroes can't have everything. Even in "Batman," Rachel dies. The conflict of not being able to have the person you truly love is something our millennial generation can empathize with.

For me, the beauty of American comics is that they create a world where it's okay for someone like me to exist.

Every human being definitely has good points and a role to play. In "The Avengers," even though it seems like only Mighty Thor is needed, there are scenes where Hawkeye is Hawkeye and things would be difficult without him.

When Professor X appeared in "X-Men," a hero in a wheelchair was very innovative. "Daredevil" (2003) is also blind. Being a hero despite having a physical disability might have actually given people tremendous courage.

I hadn't noticed that perspective, but you're right.

American comics have been heading toward diversity for a long time.

I want to look forward to future works as well.