Participant Profile
Nakamura Manju (Ogawa Mitsuharu)
Other : Kabuki ActorKeio University alumni *Photo: Right
Nakamura Manju (Ogawa Mitsuharu)
Other : Kabuki ActorKeio University alumni *Photo: Right
Nakamura Tokizo (Ogawa Yoshiharu)
Other : Kabuki ActorKeio University alumni *Photo: Left
Nakamura Tokizo (Ogawa Yoshiharu)
Other : Kabuki ActorKeio University alumni *Photo: Left
Nakamura Baishi (Ogawa Hiroharu)
Other : Kabuki ActorAffiliated Schools Yochisha Elementary School, 3rd Grade*Photo: Center
Nakamura Baishi (Ogawa Hiroharu)
Other : Kabuki ActorAffiliated Schools Yochisha Elementary School, 3rd Grade*Photo: Center
Interviewer: Kato Mitsuaki
Other : Honorary TeacherInterviewer: Kato Mitsuaki
Other : Honorary Teacher
2024/10/15
Background of the Triple Succession
──First of all, congratulations on the triple succession across three generations. I have a long-standing connection with the Ogawa family; Manju-san (Mitsuharu-kun) was in the same class as me at the Yochisha Elementary School and Keio Futsubu School, and Tokizo-san (Yoshiharu-kun) was a student in my class for six years at the Yochisha. And Baishi's Taisei-kun is currently a third-grader at the Yochisha. Is this kind of triple succession across three generations rare?
If you say it's rare, it is rare. However, everyone lives longer these days, don't they? If I had passed away earlier, my son would have inherited my name (Tokizo) sooner, and I wouldn't have had to think of a new name for myself.
The name Baishi, which my grandson took for his debut performance this time, was a childhood name that I also used. Once you reach a certain age, you have to change your name. When I decided I wanted my grandson to make his debut as Baishi, I thought it was the right time to pass the name Tokizo to my son and for me to consider a new name.
──If I recall, Manju-san's younger brother, Ogawa Shinjiro-kun, was Nakamura Shinjiro for a long time before suddenly becoming Kinnosuke (the second).
That's right. At that time, Chairman Takeomi Nagayama of Shochiku said it was strange for him to still be Shinjiro and told us to think of a name. That's how he became "Kinnosuke."
──Was the first Kinnosuke your uncle?
Yes. He was my father's (Tokizo IV) younger brother. When our family changed its yago (guild name) from Harimaya to Yorozuya, he said, "I'll make the name Yorozuya famous," and changed from Nakamura Kinnosuke to Yorozuya Kinnosuke.
──The name Manju was created for the first time for this occasion. What is its origin?
Since we are Yorozuya, I definitely wanted to include the character "Man" (萬). So, I thought, how about Manju (萬壽)? When I looked it up, it was an era name during the Heian period, it's auspicious, and the sake brands Hyakuju, Senju, and Manju from Kubota are famous, aren't they?
The first year of the Manju era, when the era name was changed, was the year of Kinoene (the first of the sexagenary cycle). This is a bit of a coincidence, but according to the sexagenary cycle, I am Kinotohitsuji. And my grandfather, Tokizo III, was also Kinotohitsuji, exactly 60 years apart.
What's interesting is that my father was born in the Year of the Rabbit in 1927, and my son, the current Tokizo, was also born in the Year of the Rabbit in 1987. Tokizo IV and Tokizo VI are also 60 years apart. Because of things like that, I thought the name Manju, which started in the year of Kinoene, was quite interesting. Also, the first year of the Manju era corresponds to 1024 AD, which is exactly 1,000 years ago.
──Does the guild name Yorozuya mean you are all relatives?
Yes, that's right. Guild names are often given based on a connection or history with the actors. The most famous is the Ichikawa Danjuro family. Their guild name is Naritaya, which has continued since the Genroku era; they were devotees of Naritasan Shinshoji Temple and received their guild name from there.
Our family was originally from Harima in Hyogo Prefecture, so we were Harimaya. As for Yorozuya, my great-grandmother was the only daughter of a theater tea house called Yorozuya, which was attached to the Ichimuraza, one of the three major theaters in Edo. Since the family line was going to end, she asked that if children were born, one should be allowed to succeed the family. My grandfather (Tokizo III) was the one who succeeded it and took the surname Ogawa. So, we became Yorozuya from the name of my great-grandmother's family.
──In this succession performance, the sons of your cousin Nakamura Shido II, Haruki-kun (Nakamura Haruki I) and Natsuki-kun (Nakamura Natsuki I), also took new names. Are they also Yorozuya?
Yes. They are Yorozuya. However, since Harimaya had no one left to succeed the line, the families of my two cousins, Nakamura Karoku V and Nakamura Matagoro III, returned to Harimaya.
The Name Tokizo
──Tokizo-san, how did you feel when you were told, "I want to pass the name Tokizo to you"?
Three years ago in June, while I was performing at the Hakataza Theatre, my father told me he had something to talk about and asked me to go to dinner, where he said he wanted to pass on the name Tokizo. At that time, I said, "Absolutely not, it's too early. What will happen to your name?"
He says that, but a succession requires two or three years of preparation. I wanted to convince everyone early on and move the conversation forward smoothly.
──How old were you when you became Tokizo, Manju-san?
I was 26. He is 36, so originally, I should have considered it a bit earlier for him.
──Both of you were already Baishi when you were at the Yochisha. At what age did you take that name?
At age 4, for my debut performance.
I was Baishi from age 6.
──What about Taisei-kun?
8 years old.
Taisei actually wanted to make his debut a bit earlier, but because of COVID-19, it kept getting postponed.
──What kind of tradition does the name Tokizo have?
Tokizo I was the real name of my great-grandfather, Nakamura Karoku III. Since our family didn't have names that served as hereditary titles, we used real names or haiku pen names. Actually, Shido is a haiku pen name. Baishi is also originally the haiku pen name of Karoku I.
──Which generation of Baishi are you?
I am the third.
I am the fourth.
──And Taisei-kun is the fifth.
In my great-grandfather's time, the name Tokizo was his real name, so no one knew it. Tokizo II was an adopted son who inherited it, and after he passed away young, my grandfather made the name Tokizo famous as the third generation. My father was the fourth but died young, and I am the fifth.
Now, I hope the sixth generation will make it even greater.
Training Between Parent and Child
──As someone involved in education, I'd like to ask: Kabuki is often hereditary, isn't it? Usually, when parents try to teach things like studies, children tend to rebel. How is it in your case?
He listens well when it comes to acting, but in his private life, he's constantly rebelling (laughs). The only hobby we share is golf. Otherwise, it's like he dislikes everything I do. Well, as long as he works hard at acting, it's fine.
My father only teaches me properly when he's in the mood (laughs). Even though he teaches other actors so kindly and thoroughly.
I figure you're quite capable, so I don't need to say that much.
──Does Taisei-kun learn from his father? What's it like? Is he strict?
Not at all.
──(Laughs). So Manju-san doesn't teach by saying things like "What are you doing?"
Oh, he did. When I was a child actor, I was trained while being whacked with a wooden sword for having the wrong foot position or the wrong timing.
Wasn't that a dream? (laughs). I don't know what he thinks, but there are several things I was taught very carefully, so I make sure to teach those properly.
But for things where he's using his own ingenuity, I feel like that's good enough. Rather than teaching seriously, it's more like letting him try it the way he wants to.
Training Received from Grandmother
──Manju-san, when you lost your father early, I heard that the then-Headmaster of the Yochisha, Eiji Uchida, allowed you to attend the funeral in your Yochisha uniform even though you hadn't enrolled yet.
My father was very happy that I passed the Yochisha entrance exam, but he passed away without seeing me in the uniform. At the time of the funeral, the uniform was already made, so we wanted him to see me in it. When someone put in a word for us, Headmaster Uchida said, "Please, go ahead and wear it."
──That's a touching story. Nowadays, it's an era of rules and more rules, so I'm impressed by such a stylish and compassionate gesture. Did you learn anything from your father before he passed away?
I didn't learn from him. It was less than two years after my debut.
──Who did you learn from?
The one who was strict was my grandmother. Her name was Hina Ogawa, and she was a godmother. She could dance and was skilled in the arts, so she would even give critiques to my grandfather, Tokizo III, saying, "What are you doing?"
I was worked quite hard by that grandmother when I was a child actor. For example, when dancing, an onnagata (female role) keeps their knees together. To check this, she would tell me to tuck up my kimono and say, "Now dance," while she watched to see if my knees were strictly together.
After that, my grandfather's younger brother, Nakamura Kanzaburo XVII, taught me various roles from the time I was a child actor. While I was speaking my lines, he would say things on stage like, "Okay, breathe now."
──During the actual performance?
Yes. Since Kabuki doesn't use microphones, you gradually run out of breath, and your lines get faster and faster. As they get faster, it becomes even harder to breathe. If you take a breath, it creates a pause (ma), so you can speak slowly again. Things like that said on stage have stayed with me.
──Taisei-kun, do you like appearing on stage?
Yeah.
You work hard when your friends come to see you, don't you?
I'm working a little bit hard.
──But your mie (pose) during the succession announcement was wonderful. The way you bowed during the greetings was also good.
There are various ways to do the kojo (formal announcement). There's the style where everyone lines up in kamishimo (formal attire), but I like doing it in the middle of a play, during the performance, so that's what we did this time.
──In this succession performance, you performed the Mikasayama scene from "Imoseyama Onna Teikin." Do you have any special feelings about co-starring with your father?
None at all. To begin with, I don't usually have much of a sense of him being my father. We spend more time in the dressing room as master and disciple.
──"Imoseyama Onna Teikin" is a play that Manju-san also performed, right?
I performed it in 1981 for my own succession to the name Tokizo. My father also performed it for his succession when he became Tokizo in April 1960.
──So three generations in a row performed the same play for their succession. Taisei-kun, did you learn anything from your grandfather for "Yamanba"?
Just a little.
I gave him some pointers, like "Do the mie like this."
──How do you feel doing "Yamanba" with your grandfather? Are you conscious of him being your grandfather?
I don't think about it at all.
──It's the same for you, then. I think it was a wonderful performance with all your relatives, like Kinnosuke-san and Mantaro-san, appearing.
Thoughts on the Yochisha
──Have you ever heard from your father about his desire to have you enter Keio?
Not directly, but I've heard about it. At that time, many Kabuki actors' children went to Gyosei. My father also went to Gyosei, but they didn't have a university, you see. Apparently, my father wanted me to go to university. So, he was very happy when I got into the Yochisha. Despite that, I ended up dropping out of university, which I felt bad about.
──How was it being at Keio?
Actually, quite a few senior Kabuki actors are Keio alumni. Nakamura Fujuro V, as well as the uncle of Onoe Baiko VII and Onoe Kurouemon II, were both at the Yochisha Elementary School. I believe they were classmates of Professor Koji Toita.
My father seems to have had me take the entrance exam partly because my cousin was attending Yochisha. Once I entered, I realized how great Keio is. My classmates are all wonderful people, and I think it is a fantastic school. I am grateful that Tokizo was also able to enter and be in Mr. Kato's class (laughs).
──How about you, Tokizo-san?
I didn't realize it while I was attending Yochisha, but now that I've enrolled my own child and look back on why Yochisha was good, I think it was the environment. At Yochisha, they somehow forgive you no matter what you do. Even if your interests go in many different directions, no one really stops you.
──So, because you think it was good, you're having your son take on the challenge.
That's only natural.
──Taisei-kun, is school fun?
Yes.
──There was a bit of a pause there (laughs). Also, the celebratory curtain (iwaimaku) for the name-succession performance was designed by Hiroshi Senju, who is also a Yochisha alumnus. How did that come about?
Mr. Senju and I had a mutual acquaintance. Many different people paint celebratory curtains, but I realized I hadn't seen one by Mr. Senju. When I asked through an intermediary if he would be interested, he said, "I'll do it."
A celebratory curtain must include the names. I thought it would be inelegant to write them directly on that painting, but when I consulted him about wanting to put "Manju, Tokizo, Baishi" in Roman letters in the margin, he said, "That's fine."
──So that celebratory curtain is for the three generations.
Pride as an Onnagata
──Some Kabuki actors appear on TV often, but you all don't really do that and instead compete solely through Kabuki. I think that's admirable in terms of protecting classical performing arts.
The role of an onnagata (male actor of female roles) is unique, and we try not to show our everyday selves too much. So if we appear on TV and act in home dramas or the like, I wonder how it affects the image. Most people appearing on TV or in movies are tachiyaku (male role actors).
──I see, that makes sense. But don't you ever want to earn more on TV? (laughs)
I do think about it, but the image of an onnagata is very important. If I go on TV, I might be asked to do strange things. It's scary if that becomes the norm. I don't think that would have a good influence on my onnagata roles.
However, I don't mind at all if my child appears on TV. My wife actually wants him to appear more and more (laughs).
──When you're not in makeup, do people not recognize you if they see you in town?
Especially for onnagata, we are often not recognized when walking around with our natural faces.
But the other day in Osaka, when I went to the zoo with Taisei wearing casual shorts, a T-shirt, and sunglasses, someone approached me and said, "You're Tokizo-san, aren't you?" I hated it, it was so embarrassing...
──Finally, I would like to hear about your goals.
Since I am at this age now, I feel I must teach my son and the younger generations more of what I learned from my seniors. These days, there are so many video recordings, so many people just watch those and perform.
When I was young, I had to go see the plays and go to my seniors to be taught. When I went to learn, there were many happy memories. After it was over, we would go to eat together, and they would talk about the plays again. Those things have become my assets, so I want to pass that on to everyone.
I haven't had parents since I was a child actor, but Shochiku raised me, so in return, I want to live a long life and devote myself to Kabuki.
──Tokizo-san, having succeeded to the new name of Tokizo, what are your goals for the future?
For Tokizo, the vessel has already been built by my great-grandfather, grandfather, and father, so I want to practice my craft thoroughly so that I can fill that vessel with as much as possible until it overflows.
In this modern age, actors who do only classical works are becoming fewer, so I believe there are things that only we can do and things that only we can show. I want to be able to embody that.
──Taisei-kun, what kind of things do you want to do in the future? School studies?
I'm okay without the studies.
──So you're okay without the studies (laughs). Thank you all for today. I look forward to your future success.
(Recorded on August 5, 2024, at Mita Campus)
*Affiliations, titles, etc., are as of the time of publication.