[Feature: Changing Families and Child-rearing] Roundtable: Changes in Child-rearing Awareness and the Obstacles to It

Thank you all for gathering here today despite your busy schedules. Today, I would like to talk with you about the theme of changes in family and child-rearing.

While gender equality has been discussed for a long time, the reassignment of gender roles within the household has progressed, and perspectives on childcare have changed over the past decade, as seen in the rising rate of men taking childcare leave. On the other hand, our society still seems to face various problems at the levels of policy, awareness, and behavior.

First, I would like to ask you to briefly introduce yourselves and, if you don't mind, share your own involvement in child-rearing.

I am currently raising two children, aged 2 and 7, while living in my hometown of Kagawa as a "U-turn" migrant.

Regarding my own child-rearing, my parents live about a five-minute walk away, so when I come to Tokyo for work, I manage to get things done with their help. I rely on them so much that I honestly wouldn't be able to work without them.

Also, last year, I was selected as an expert member of the "Children's Future Strategy Council," where I have been given various opportunities to express my opinions on issues such as the declining birthrate.

I am 30 years old and an occupational physician by profession. I was originally in the obstetrics and gynecology department of a university, but now, as companies are becoming more interested in women's health care, I am in charge of occupational health for 20 companies in Tokyo.

As another part of my work, I support men's involvement in childcare and childcare leave. While male childcare leave has been promoted under the so-called "Ikumen" (involved fathers) movement, I felt a sense of crisis from the perspective of an obstetrician and occupational physician about the situation where men are told to "take leave" without the proper environment being in place. As a solution, I am working with fathers themselves to create support systems in local governments and companies. Last year, I published a book on male childcare leave titled "Post-Ikumen Male Childcare."

My original specialty in the field of sociology was communication. However, a certain opportunity led me to write a series on child-rearing for the "Mainichi Shimbun," and when I wrote about "one-ope ikuji" (solo childcare), it became the catalyst for that term spreading throughout society. It wasn't a word I coined, but one used online; however, I ended up being the one who popularized it, and it was nominated for the Buzzword Award that year.

With that background, I also conducted ethnography and field research in parallel, and co-authored a study on that research the year before last ("Working Mothers and Stratification").

I have been conducting research in the field of family sociology for a long time. I have mainly used quantitative data to look at the current situation and past changes regarding work-life balance, women's employment, and issues related to child-rearing. Currently, I am interested in focusing my research on the concept of time.

Finally, about myself: I am just about double Mr. Hirano's age. I have one child who is already 30, so my period of child-rearing is over, but since my wife worked for a newspaper company, I did all the housework and childcare. People often think I'm lying (laughs), but I did 100% of it, and even now, housework is basically my role.

So, I believe I understand the hardships and feelings of those raising children in my own way. I felt that one child was all I could handle. My child was born when I was 31, but the 30s are a time when researchers must focus on their research, so it was a difficult period.

People often talk about balancing childcare and work, but in my case, I felt like I couldn't balance them; rather, I felt forced to prioritize childcare without pushing myself too hard at work.

Now, regarding the current situation and concerns of the child-rearing generation, I would like to ask Ms. Nakano, who is currently in the midst of raising children, to share what kind of difficulties she is facing.

I personally feel very blessed with a support system because my parents are nearby. However, looking around me, there are many people doing "solo childcare."

Currently, I think the movement to take paternity leave after birth is really increasing. However, as you realize when living in the regions, while there is a trend in large companies in Tokyo that you must take paternity leave and movements within companies to promote it, that progress is not happening in regional areas.

Especially in male-dominated companies like the construction industry, it seems difficult to take time off because taking leave would increase the burden on those around them.

Also, currently, if you take childcare leave, 60% of your salary is supported, but even so, your income decreases. Especially in regional areas, many people have parents living nearby, so rather than the father taking leave, it's more common to leave the child with grandparents and work full-time so the salary doesn't decrease. Grandparents are often happy to look after their grandchildren, too.

I think paternity leave is a great system, but I feel there are parts of it that are difficult to penetrate depending on the region or occupation.

According to data recently released by the NLI Research Institute, there was a temporary return to regional areas during COVID, and regional populations increased, but now an outflow to the cities is occurring again. In particular, it is said that women aged 18–22 are the ones moving to the cities the most.

One reason for this is that young women have started to seek partners who will help with childcare and companies with systems that allow for it. That environment is hard to find in regional areas. Consequently, they leave wanting to marry in metropolitan areas, leading to an excess of women in the cities.

It is certainly true that men have become more able to take childcare leave. Some large companies now make the benefit rate equivalent to 100% or make it a requirement for both men and women to take leave. However, when it comes to whether small and medium-sized enterprises or sole proprietors can handle this, the reality is not catching up at all.

I believe the gap between large companies and others is widening significantly and becoming a problem.

So, corporate disparities are reflected in the ease of taking childcare leave?

Clearly so.

I think that gap exists not only between regional areas and Tokyo, but also within the metropolitan area. In the research we published two years ago, it was clear that differences emerge depending on social class. When we interviewed mothers who are not university graduates, many of their husbands work at construction sites. The wives are often social workers, caregivers, care managers, or nurses who leave their children at daycare centers.

In those cases, the idea of a man taking time off from work to look after children at home seems unthinkable. Even when the husband comes home, he sleeps while playing games on his smartphone, and even if the wife says, "Daddy, help out," he doesn't. I was a bit surprised to find that such things are common even in the city.

On the other hand, when I hear stories from highly educated couples who both work for large companies, they are very progressive; fathers actively participate in children's events and naturally take childcare leave. Even within the same metropolitan area, there are groups living with completely different values.

The overall rate of fathers taking childcare leave is about 17% (preliminary figures from the FY2023 Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare survey), but the current reality is that this mostly consists of highly educated, progressive couples in the city.

So there is a large disparity between classes. This is Ms. Nishimura's specialty, I believe.

I also read Ms. Fujita's book, and I found it very eye-opening as it clearly showed the differences in involvement in childcare based on the combination of the couple's educational backgrounds.

I recently analyzed how the time women spend on housework and childcare has changed across generations. According to the "Panel Survey on Consumer Life" conducted by the Institute for Household Economy, comparing those born in the late 1960s with those born in the early 1980s, the total time spent on housework and childcare was more than an hour less for the younger generation.

However, on the other hand, among the younger generation, there is a trend where those with higher education tend to spend more time on housework and childcare. I felt that the disparity between classes—or perhaps the difference in how people engage with child-rearing—has been expanding in recent years.

There is a large national survey called the Survey on Time Use and Leisure Activities, and looking at that, childcare time has been increasing in recent years. On the other hand, housework time is decreasing. While the number of children born per couple has decreased slightly, the time spent on each child is actually increasing.

Also, in the past, Japanese women had a strong tendency to resign upon giving birth, regardless of their educational background. However, looking at data from the last four or five years, resignations at childbirth have decreased significantly. Among women who are four-year university graduates, about 40% continue to work in regular positions even immediately after childbirth.

Resignations at childbirth have also basically decreased among non-university graduates. In this way, regardless of class, the trend of women continuing to work after childbirth is clearly emerging.

In this context, how is the nature of child-rearing changing? Ms. Nakano, what points did you find difficult in raising children?

I believe the "difficulty of raising children" that is being discussed in various places does indeed exist in Japan today. I lived in Singapore from the birth of my first child until they were about 3 years old, and everyone there would naturally help with strollers, and when I was pregnant, people would always give up their seats on the train.

Because people interacted so naturally, while there were difficult aspects of living abroad regarding childcare, I honestly never felt it was stressful.

So society was cooperative.

Yes. But when I returned to Japan and tried to transfer to the Keio Line from Shinjuku, no one helped me even when I was lost with a stroller at Shinjuku Station. The elevators were endlessly far away. Even when I was troubled about how to get to the platform, everyone just passed by. I realized that this is the so-called difficulty of raising children in Japan.

I often hear that those raising children in the city are still told things when they get on a bus with a twin stroller, or are told that "children are noisy" even in parks.

In the "Children's Future Strategy Council," the idea of creating priority lanes where children can line up first comes up, but I think we need to change everyone's awareness before creating such things. A society that naturally values children, a society where people yield to those with children without them having to say "sorry," and a society where the entire nation shares an attitude of tolerance even if children are noisy. I think we should make that the norm.

My child is an elementary school student, and I also feel that it is difficult to raise children.

I always feel what Ms. Nakano mentioned about station elevators being very far away. From the gender perspective that is often discussed lately, I think this is because they are mainly designed by men. Various recent studies have pointed out that cities are not built from the perspective of women or mothers, and I think there is an issue of gender inequality there.

Actually, the issue of strollers has repeatedly become a social problem since the 1970s. If you read newspaper articles from 50 years ago, almost the same arguments were being made; it's just being repeated.

There are significant issues with such gender inequality, the gendered division of labor, and the value of labor. In other words, there is an argument that labor that earns money outside has value, but unpaid labor and care work within the home have no value because they don't produce money. I feel there is an awareness somewhere in society that prioritizes people going to work over people pushing strollers.

So social spaces are constructed in a gendered way, and seeking gender equality leads to conflict.

Also, it is said that housework time in Japan is low compared to the West. In the West, people do DIY, invite guests, and try to make their time at home richer. But in Japan, the home is a space for mother and child, so people work hard to minimize housework. Nowadays, "time-saving techniques" are celebrated in the media. Time-saving cleaning, time-saving cooking—there is a very strong discourse that housework should be kept to a minimum.

However, on the other hand, as mentioned earlier, the time spent on child-rearing is increasing. As seen in the concept of "Intensive Mothering" worldwide, there is a strong awareness of putting a lot of love and time into child-rearing and education. I think very complex issues are intertwined there.

Personally, I think that since the period of high economic growth, Japan has confined childcare too much within the family.

The word for house is written as "ie" but can be read as "uchi" (inside/our group). I think this is very Japanese. There is a notion somewhere in society that childcare is something to be done responsibly at home. I think the idea was formed that it is good for the child for the mother to be fully committed, with the emergence of full-time housewives as families became nuclear families during the high economic growth period, leading to the so-called "myth of motherhood."

Of course, this idea is rejected now, but the current trend of men's participation in childcare is also based on the idea that if the mother works in society, the father is the next one to do the childcare, right? No other options come up. Various systems seem to be designed based on the argument of "please complete it within the home, between the two parents."

Originally, systems and culture should be reconstructed based on the idea of sharing childcare more with society. I think the argument has become that if we make the father bear what the mother used to bear, we can manage somehow. I fear that what used to drive mothers into a corner might now drive both parents into a corner.

I really feel that what Ms. Hirano said about driving both parents into a corner is true.

When looking at research on why it is difficult for men to take childcare leave, fathers are expected at the workplace to do the same volume and quality of work as before, with the assumption that a man should be able to handle it, and they feel they must live up to that. In that context, they manage their time somehow to devote time to childcare. For example, there are even situations where they go home once, put the child in the bath, and then return to the workplace.

I feel that such situations arise because society looks down on care and those who provide it, as Ms. Fujita mentioned. Those who prioritize work are evaluated at the workplace, and those values are brought into the home. There seems to be a mindset or normative consciousness in society that it is natural to do work and that the correct way is to manage the remaining time for childcare.

Reflecting on my own life, I feel that way too. Ms. Fujita mentioned the Western culture of inviting guests, and I also ideally want to have friends over on weekends and have a fun time chatting. If someone comes from abroad, I want to welcome them to my home, but on the other hand, I end up thinking about who will do the preparation and often decide it's impossible this time too.

I feel that the priority of care, enjoying time with family, and enriching private time has become very low within society.

Men are primarily expected to fulfill the breadwinner role, or rather, to support the household finances. This is also true in the US. Because that expectation is so strong, they inevitably prioritize that and use the remaining time for childcare and housework.

Conversely, even if a man is actually doing childcare and housework, it's hard for people at the workplace to see it that way. I was doing childcare a long time ago, but since no one at work thought I was doing such things, overtime work kept coming my way, and chores were assigned to me; it was incredibly tough.

On the other hand, even among university faculty, when a woman gives birth, those around her tend to be considerate. But for men, there was nothing like that. I think that is also related to the difficulty of taking childcare leave.

Working as an occupational physician, I feel that in Japan, work is often prioritized over self-care, not just care like child-rearing. This is true for companies and for the individuals themselves. People who are clearly suffering from mental health issues are thinking about work that isn't getting done.

That's how little financial value or priority is placed on care. I don't know if this is a recent thing or a national character, but in the end, it seems that it hasn't become natural for everyone to care for others and care for themselves. Even if it's not childcare, there should be time to care for oneself or one's partner.

I have an acquaintance who is a midwife and also runs a company. Since those around her are midwives who are in the position of being caregivers, even if they are busy business owners, it's natural for them to care for each other. When someone has a child, they visit each other. They naturally do things like, "I'll watch the child at my place for a night, so go take a long bath."

I thought that if caring for others simultaneously becomes caring for oneself, everyone's eyes would turn more toward childcare and caring for those around them.

I see. By the way, Ms. Nakano, do you not use housekeeping services much?

For housekeeping, I have been using a place called the Marugame City Silver Human Resources Center since before my children were born.

Elderly people come about three times a week; the people have changed since I was a child, but they have been coming. Right when I gave birth to my second child, my mother injured her leg and was hospitalized for about two months. The most troublesome part was that I had to look after my father. He's a very old-fashioned man, so he'd say things like "bring me tea" or "cut the pickles."

After giving birth, I was exhausted and felt very frustrated when he said those things, so it was truly helpful that the Silver Human Resources person came more often at that time. Above all, the sense of security from having someone to talk to was a great emotional support after childbirth.

So you mainly had them do house cleaning?

Yes. Not cooking, but things like vacuuming.

Ms. Nishimura, did you also use Silver Human Resources?

Yes. We have been relying on them since our children were small.

Because you have many children. You have four, right?

Requesting help from the Silver Human Resources Center was reasonably priced, and there was a sense of security because people from the local neighborhood would come. They came about two days a week to clean, and sometimes to make dinner.

So, you're saying that by making good use of housekeeping services, it became possible to balance both work and home life?

I think that was a big factor. There are times when you simply can't get home when you thought you would, so having dinner more or less ready when I got back was something I was incredibly grateful for.

Ms. Fujita, did you use those kinds of services?

I did. However, while I think it's a huge help when you have four children like Ms. Nishimura, we only have one child. When I used a silver human resources center service, an elderly person from the neighborhood would come over, which actually made me feel very self-conscious and apologetic. I also had to manage the time for them, so there were moments when I wondered if it was really worth it.

Ms. Hirano, have you ever used such services?

Actually, I've been using them since my second year as a working professional (laughs).

While living alone?

Yes. During my time in clinical practice, I worked incredibly reckless hours, and seeing my housework fall into ruin was what led me to ask for help.

As an industrial physician, I sometimes recommend these services to households raising children. The most important significance is not becoming isolated. If two people are cooped up at home when they're feeling exhausted, it can become a hopeless situation.

Bringing in housekeeping isn't just about reducing your own workload; it allows you to feel like you are being cared for. When someone notices something you haven't and says, "I took care of this for you," it makes you feel like your life is being looked after, which is a nice feeling. I think that's a factor as well.

So, it seems that using housekeeping services does make certain things possible. I didn't use them much myself, which is why my home fell into ruin (laughs).

While using services like housekeeping, are there parts you feel shouldn't be externalized? For example, insisting on home-cooked meals—I imagine that's a common sentiment.

In our case, there's a supermarket very close by, and my mother lives nearby as well. We're particular about home cooking in the sense that we exchange side dishes with her.

Is that for health reasons or safety?

I'm not that particular about it, but being able to buy vegetables very cheaply is a big factor. In Kagawa, I buy them at places like markets, and they are so delicious you can eat them raw. I feel it's a waste not to cook when such ingredients are available. It takes effort, but there are so many time-saving recipes on social media these days.

Many people do seem to want home-cooked meals once they have children.

That depends on the person. Those who are particular might be very focused on organic food, or even put cabbage on their head when they have a fever (laughs).

Personally, I don't feel at all like I have to be the one making it. I'm perfectly fine eating something prepared by a silver human resources worker. Nowadays, I also make quite a bit of use of those services that deliver a bulk of food on the weekend.

In our research, many regular employees working full-time talked about using services and cooking appliances to prepare dinner, while many non-regular employees and housewives wanted to make things from scratch as much as possible.

For non-regular employees, the reason they are non-regular is often to care for their families, so if they just buy dinner, they feel it defeats the purpose. Consequently, they cook as a matter of identity. I was also surprised to hear many full-time housewives say they don't want their husbands to do housework because then they would have nothing left to do.

That's what's known as the gatekeeping hypothesis.

Everyone is very particular about their value within the home. In the community of full-time housewives, there's a sense that home-cooked meals are the norm. So, even within Japan, things differ quite a bit depending on one's working style and job.

On the other hand, in the Chinese-speaking world, takeout is very well-developed, and people even eat breakfast out. Also, in the US and UK, microwaveable ready-meals are incredibly common. According to a paper I read recently, in the US, "cooking" has become synonymous with "heating." Cutting ingredients from scratch is considered "elaborate cooking" and isn't seen as ordinary cooking.

So, while things are being simplified, Japan might still have more mother's home cooking compared to other countries. Since the 60s, ready-made clothes became common, so no one makes them anymore. Overseas, home cooking might eventually become something you buy, just like clothes.

There's the question of how to evaluate that. Earlier we talked about how care work is undervalued, but in another sense, the value of housework and childcare can be seen as high. In other words, people value home-cooked meals and find worth in serving them, so they prioritize that. But of course, there is the criticism that this makes balancing work and life difficult.

I was actually very particular about home cooking myself; I almost never eat out. I don't buy many pre-made side dishes either and cook for myself. I became quite particular about it after my child was born. Perhaps that's why I couldn't balance things well.

Ultimately, to balance work and life, you have to reduce the time spent on housework. Conversely, non-regular workers choose to prioritize housework and childcare and work in between, which is why they insist on home-cooked meals.

It's quite difficult to evaluate how housework and childcare should be. There's certainly the opinion that one should just externalize things like cooking by using meal kits instead of making elaborate dishes. However, I also feel it's true that it's not always that easy to be so pragmatic.

Values vary so much. My husband has a resistance to pre-made side dishes; he complains that if I buy them, he doesn't know where they were made, so I end up "remaking" the store-bought dishes (laughs). It's fine if partners are looking in the same direction, but if one is organic-oriented and the other isn't at all, it can be quite tough. Especially once a child is born.

Something often mentioned in surveys during pregnancy is that it's actually men who tend to be more insistent on home-cooked food for children. Surveys show that women tend to look at reality and move toward time-saving or ready-made options.

That might be because they only do it occasionally. In our surveys, we often heard opinions from men like, "My mother used to make it for me."

Like saying the miso soup tastes different, right?

I repeatedly hear stories about wives getting angry because their husbands say, "My mother made everything from scratch, so why aren't you?" (laughs).

In Japan, the gendered division of labor was established around the period of high economic growth, and that's when the full-time housewife was born. Housework and childcare became increasingly complex and sophisticated during that time. And there's a resistance to lowering the standards of housework and cooking once they've been elevated.

Is the choice now whether to simplify the cooking and child-rearing that has become so complex, or to maintain those standards by using things like housekeeping services?

Regarding child-rearing, I feel it's becoming more compulsive as time goes on. There's the term "precious child," where people have only one child, perhaps after fertility treatment at age 40. It's as if they feel everything will end if they slip up even a little, and they raise the child with a very compulsive, narrow-minded focus. That's why they are so particular.

Looking at it objectively, one meal isn't going to change a child's life, yet they are extremely particular. Unless it's something they might choke on, there's almost no difference between an organic carrot and a regular one. My impression from listening to various stories is that this sense of compulsion is overlapping with those elevated standards.

In fact, as I mentioned earlier, time spent on childcare is steadily increasing. This is true for both university graduates and non-graduates, for dual-income households and so-called full-time housewife households; the time spent on childcare is extending, and the trend of spending more time and money on children is accelerating.

We mentioned "Intensive Mothering" earlier, and this trend is very strong in the US as well. Recent research shows that the idea of spending time and money on child-rearing has become common across social classes, regardless of whether one is a university graduate. However, the graduate class seems better able to achieve this because they have more disposable income.

The discussion on measures against the declining birthrate inevitably links to today's theme. In Japan, because people spend so much time and money on child-rearing, there's a tendency to have to limit the number of children. Is that being discussed at the Children's Future Strategy Council?

Right now, there's talk of increasing the income of the younger generation, but a lot is taken away in taxes, and take-home pay is decreasing significantly. If income doesn't increase when someone wants a second child, they might find it difficult. In rural areas, I often hear people say they can't imagine having a child if the wife takes childcare leave and income drops, and then the husband takes leave too.

At the Children's Future Strategy Council, there are voices calling for free higher education for the third child, but first, the important thing is whether to have one child at all, or even whether to get married in the first place. The number of people who don't want to get married is increasing, isn't it? I think more emphasis should be placed on how we think about that. We need to consider what kind of society makes people want to have children and increase the wages of young people. I hope we can create a climate where people feel they want to have children.

I'm sure the sociologists have a lot they want to say about the declining birthrate. Ms. Fujita, what are your thoughts?

All of East Asia is in a trend of declining birthrates.

South Korea and Taiwan have fertility rates below 1.0.

The birthrate is also declining very rapidly in China. Various factors in modernization are having an effect, and I wonder if anything will really increase much with superficial measures. It would be different if it were only Japan's rate that was decreasing.

Exactly, it's decreasing in all developed countries.

However, young students today hear so much in the media about how hard child-rearing is, so I think they definitely have a lot of anxiety about the future. Given that, the number of young people who don't want to have children because it seems so difficult is increasing. I think there's the question of what to do about that.

What do you think, Ms. Nishimura?

Various policies are being introduced one after another as measures against the declining birthrate. Policies like extending child allowance until high school graduation, covering childbirth costs under insurance, and making higher education free for multi-child households are emerging. I feel that policy support on the economic front will become more substantial in the future, and I believe that is necessary.

In addition, regarding childcare, a new system called the "Childcare for All System" has been created, allowing parents to leave their children at a facility for a certain number of hours a month even if they aren't working, and childcare leave is being enhanced. It's good that various types of support are being proposed. It's important that young people can feel, even a little, that they can have children if these measures are continued indefinitely.

Regarding childcare support, there was a paper a while ago that categorized policies in European and Anglo-Saxon countries and quantified the level of support for three types of policies: care-related leave, flexible working styles, and childcare benefits. It examined how the happiness levels of parents and non-parents differed depending on the level of support.

The interesting result was that the gap in happiness between parents and non-parents was smallest in societies where these policies were comprehensive as a package. Furthermore, the results showed that in societies where various policies are comprehensive as a package, both parents and non-parents are happy, which I found very suggestive.

The fact that policies exist as a package means they are supporting people raising children from multiple angles. The fact that non-parents are also happy suggests that comprehensive childcare policies don't make non-parents feel like they are losing out, but rather make them happy too. It seems to suggest such an effect.

I believe that social support for care can have an influence not just on those currently involved in care, but on a much broader society as a whole.

Enhancing childcare policies in Japan might directly provide generous support to those currently raising children. But from a broader perspective, it leads to a sense that society as a whole is raising children and that there are systems to help when one is in trouble, which I believe will have a ripple effect.

That's an important point. Enhancing childcare support also increases the sense of happiness for those who don't have children.

I think this is exactly what is happening now with women's health and productivity management. In companies that only unilaterally push for leave for childcare or childbirth, a strong sense of unfairness arises from men. In contrast, in companies that provide proper education and implement women's health management with support for balancing work and life, men also find it easier to take time off, their knowledge increases, and they start thinking about care. Consequently, it seems there's an aspect where companies that are easy for men to work in are also created.

As Ms. Nakano mentioned, the unmarried rate is rising significantly; nearly 30% of men and about 20% of women will never marry in their lifetime. There's talk that enhancing childcare support creates social division, but based on what was just said, that's not the case.

The fundamental cause of the declining birthrate is overwhelmingly the decrease in people getting married. The number of children born per couple has decreased slightly, but not significantly. This leads to a debate about how much enhancing childcare support will actually curb the declining birthrate.

I believe we should design social systems on the premise that the birthrate will decline. Trying to forcibly improve the birthrate by making people go to matchmaking events is completely meaningless, and policies that prioritize "be fruitful and multiply" over individual happiness don't align at all with the sensibilities of young people.

While I think it's important to make it possible for those who want children to have them, rather than doing such misguided things, we should think about ways for each individual to live happily. Even if childcare support itself doesn't affect measures against the declining birthrate, I think we are still far from properly considering how children can live happily.

I think this also connects to the self-care Ms. Hirano mentioned. In Japan, men don't do self-care at all. Even if an elderly person is unwell or lonely, they feel it's shameful to ask for help. In a society with such people, the idea of caring for others won't emerge. In that sense, if we become a society that supports each other multi-dimensionally, I think many things will change.

I actually think "fandom activities" (oshi-katsu) are a great form of self-care. Of course, they are caring for the person they support, but I think more than anything, it's self-care.

In industrial physician interviews, I often ask, "Are you doing any fandom activities?" I use it as a gauge—if they can't do that anymore, I know things are getting bad. I think being able to talk about one's devotion to something one loves is a form of care that fits Japanese culture very well. I think child-rearing also has that element in a way.

The issue of self-care often comes up in sociology, especially as a problem for the elderly. The number of men reaching old age unmarried is increasing, and it's often pointed out that such people tend to fall into self-neglect. In that sense, I feel this problem cannot be solved unless we equalize the gender roles in our society.

An important topic over the last few years is childcare by men. Ms. Hirano, what are your thoughts on the current situation and future challenges in this area?

Broadly speaking, I view it this way: while in Northern Europe, men took paternity leave because they wanted to participate in childcare, in Japan, it was introduced out of a necessity to reduce the burden on women and raise the birth rate. Consequently, I feel that in Japan, paternity leave and childcare have been handed down to men as something imposed upon them, which is now creating contradictions. For many men, they are currently doing it because they are told to, and the key point is when we can break away from this situation.

The younger generation says they want to take paternity leave, but whether they truly want to do it from the bottom of their hearts or whether they think it is good to win such social rights is unclear; most people probably cannot imagine what raising a child actually entails.

Since everyone is entering childcare in that state, we must create an environment where they can do it properly. I want people to think that raising a child is, of course, fun and interesting, but at the same time, I think it is also a fact that it places a significant burden on the family.

While conveying these things, we need a society where raising a child is a viable option. If we become a society where people proactively seek to take paternity leave, then the timing of that leave will also become a matter of proactive choice. If we break down social awareness and education in that area further, I think it leads to discussions about insufficient educational facilities and a lack of administrative support.

It has long been said that Japanese men's participation in housework and childcare is low, but in terms of time, it has been increasing recently. According to a 2022 Cabinet Office report, looking at households as a whole, men do about one-third of the housework, and childcare is also increasing.

In that sense, it may not have been a proactive choice, partly due to policy support, but the involvement in housework and childcare itself is increasing. However, the reality remains that women still bear the majority of the burden. Have you noticed an increase in fathers participating in parent-teacher meetings at nursery schools, kindergartens, or elementary schools?

It has increased significantly. My impression is that many fathers are attending events like entrance ceremonies. When I was a child, almost only mothers attended classroom observations, so I have the impression that the numbers are growing.

In those settings, are the fathers blending in well with the mothers' networks?

They are blending in. These fathers are regular office workers, but it feels like they are taking paid leave to come and see their child's big moment. Even at parent-teacher meetings, the percentage of fathers is high.

That is quite a significant change.

Recently, there was an event called Benesse's "Tamahiyo Family Park," which is probably the largest parenting event in Japan. I participated on the exhibition side, and the percentage of men has been increasing year by year; finally, I saw men who had invited their male friends to come along.

Until now, it was either only women or couples, but I think the fact that such a rapid transformation is occurring can be felt from that perspective as well.

A while ago, many men probably felt embarrassed to go, so even if they wanted to, they couldn't.

I was raising children much earlier than all of you, so when I went to parent-teacher meetings, I was usually the only man. That made me feel hesitant, and I couldn't get into the mothers' networks. As a result, I didn't get any information at all, such as which doctors were good or which Juku were recommended.

Ms. Fujita, do you often see men at parent-teacher meetings as well?

They do come, but the increase in men is still mostly at weekend events or recreational activities.

Like soccer or camping.

I think they are still few at parent-teacher meetings on weekday afternoons, and while school events are an obligation for women, for men, there is still a sense that they are something to participate in on weekends when they have spare time. I don't think that part has changed.

In elementary schools, there are groups called "Dads' Associations." What is expected of these groups is, for one, "dirty work" like cleaning gutters or removing dirt from fans. Then there are typical events like camping, watermelon splitting, and fireworks.

In such events, there is an atmosphere where it's okay to let loose, and I sometimes think this is a gendered division of labor in the context of childcare. While it's okay not to worry about rules when playing with Dad, mothers are still expected to take care of the child's daily needs. I feel that currently, there is a direction that further deepens the gendered division of labor in childcare settings.

On the other hand, I feel that a change in awareness among the younger generation is actually happening. In an NHK awareness survey of junior high and high school students in 2022, when asked how they would like to share childcare if they were to have children in the future, about 70% of both junior high and high school students answered that it is better for both the mother and father to be involved equally.

In a similar survey ten years ago in 2012, only about half of junior high and high school students answered that it is better for both the mother and father to be involved in childcare to the same extent. I believe that an increase of 20 percentage points in ten years is a very significant change.

This might mean that young men have finally begun to realize that it is strange for only one partner to overwhelmingly bear the burden of care when they have a partner. I think that is a major shift.

I believe it is necessary for society to support this change in awareness among the younger generation by encouraging it and creating ways of working that allow everyone to share the burden of care equally.

Providing social support so that people with such awareness can realize it is exactly right, but one essential thing is to make working hours more flexible and shorter. If a spouse comes home at 8:00 PM, they cannot be involved if they have preschool or early elementary school children, can they?

Data from the Survey on Time Use and Leisure Activities, published by the Department of Health Policy at the National Center for Child Health and Development Research Centers and Institutes, showed that to achieve the government's current goal of "2.5 hours of housework + childcare for men," work plus commuting must be kept within 9.5 hours.

If commuting takes 45 minutes one way, 9.5 hours means zero overtime. It means that without that level of balance, one cannot properly raise a child. If the awareness forms that raising a child is almost impossible if you work overtime, especially until the child reaches preschool age, perhaps society will change.

Also, I think people who can work online have a bit more flexibility than others.

However, being able to work from home online is mostly for white-collar people with university degrees, so that might reflect something like class differences. I feel that the importance of flexibility, or rather, manageable working hours that allow for balance, has become clear, rather than just the length of working hours. I think it is important that there are options within that.

Another thing is that those of us on the side of supporting childcare—childcare, medical care, and even obstetricians—tend to talk only to the woman even when the couple comes together. This must change. I think we need to progress a bit further so that the support side and the system design side can operate on the major premise that men also do childcare.

The fact that parent-teacher meetings are held on weekday afternoons also means that people with jobs cannot participate. It might be suggested to take paid leave, but there are many cases where it's not easily taken. I would like to see things change, such as shifting the time to Saturdays or weekday evenings.

I think it was very good to be able to talk about various things today. Thank you very much for your time.