Jazz Moves On!

Today, three music lovers have gathered here. Mr. Hattori, you are skilled at skiing and tennis, and I didn't have the impression that you were involved in music during your student days. What was the catalyst for you to become so passionate about music?

Recently, I have come to believe that music has great power, but I haven't particularly studied music. Since immediately after the 2011 earthquake, I have continued to visit the three disaster-affected prefectures in Tohoku every year to hold East Japan Support Concerts. Visiting Tagajo Junior High School in Miyagi Prefecture led me to compose a choral piece, for which the students wrote the lyrics, and we performed it at a concert in 2021. I engage in these activities because I believe in the power of music. However, I didn't always believe in it this strongly.

When I was a child, my aunt, Toyoko Hattori, taught the violin to Empress Kojun, the mother of the Emperor Emeritus. Because of that influence, I studied under a violin teacher, but I hated practicing so much (laughs).

Around 1961 or 1962, what I was listening to on my SONY transistor radio was American pops. This was before the Beatles appeared. Back then, when you talked about radio, it was "S-ban Hour" or "FEN." They would play songs climbing the US charts, from number 1 down to 40th or 50th place.

The songs with the "red circle" rising rapidly on the charts.

They would say, "The next song has jumped from 48th to 22nd place in one go," and since I listened to it all the time, I'm very knowledgeable about that specific era. Paul Anka, Neil Sedaka, Connie Francis, and so on. I loved them all.

When I was in my second year of junior high, the Beatles came to Japan and there was an enthusiastic boom, but my roots are still in American pops. My favorite is Elvis Presley. Then in Japan, Group Sounds and Yuzo Kayama appeared.

However, I was just a listener. Everyone else played the guitar, so when I asked my parents to buy me one, they said it was a luxury and gave me a ukulele instead (laughs). I've never been in a band. While thinking, "Everyone is so cool, so amazing," I just focused on listening.

So you weren't singing back then.

No. I would go to karaoke or strum the guitar, but it wasn't until I was in my 40s that I made my first CD. I composed the music myself on the guitar.

At that time, I realized for the first time how much music changes depending on the arrangement. I've been hooked ever since. I'm just a simple music lover like that.

But for a music lover to decide to make a CD shows a lot of initiative.

It's amazing.

I think I became interested in jazz in my 40s as well. I thought standard jazz was wonderful.

Once, a friend introduced me to the jazz legend Toshiko Akiyoshi, and we had a meal together. There was a phrase she said that I'll never forget: "In classical music, the one who plays the difficult piece wins. But in jazz, even if you play 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star,' you can beat a difficult piece." I thought that was fascinating.

In jazz, you clash through improvisation, don't you? I feel a great energy in that. I thought it was wonderful, and that's how I became interested in jazz.

But I still tend to prefer standard jazz with vocals.

When did you realize you were a good singer?

I don't think I'm particularly good. I only started taking proper lessons about 10 years ago. I've really only studied vocalization in the last 5 or 6 years. Since jazz is in English, pronunciation is important. For pitch, I started studying by listening to my own recordings many times to see when my pitch was off.

I sing at concerts for social contribution, company events around the world, and at embassies.

About 10 years ago, at a party at the Embassy of Japan in Bern, Switzerland, many European ambassadors to Switzerland attended. The embassy staff were very careful about the seating arrangements. But when I sang with an Italian band, in the end, everyone formed a single circle of smiles that transcended national borders. That was the first time I experienced the power of music abroad.

That's wonderful. Mr. Inoue, what was your encounter with jazz like?

I've been at Keio University since college, but both my parents were jazz musicians—my father played the saxophone and my mother played the piano. I grew up in an environment surrounded by jazz from the moment I was born. Naturally, I grew to like music, but I also hated being forced to take piano lessons by my parents (laughs). They were strict, so I didn't want to do it. From around the 6th grade, as a small act of rebellion, I started playing the guitar and listening to music other than jazz.

From elementary school through high school, I had a feeling that "jazz isn't really for me."

So jazz was playing in your home all the time?

That's right. So I became devoted to the rock bands that were popular at the time. Until about high school, I had a bit of an allergy to so-called authentic jazz. But when I entered university and looked into the circles at Keio University, the level was very high. There were instrumentalists all over the place in jazz who made me wonder what they even came to university for.

They were at the level of professional musicians, weren't they?

Seeing people like that made me think that if such advanced things were possible, jazz might be fun after all. That's when I finally made up my mind to try playing jazz myself.

WONK, the group you currently belong to, is a group formed by four wonderful members. You've been in a band with the vocalist, Kento Nagatsuka, since high school, haven't you?

Yes. He's a friend from high school, and we were in a rock band together back then. After entering university, when WONK was being formed through various connections, he happened to participate as well. It was really a coincidence.

Interesting.

During university, he was also singing jazz standards at small jazz clubs. I was also interested in the crossover between jazz and various other genres. Hikaru Arata (drums) and Ayatake Ezaki (keyboards) were in the jazz society, so the four of us gathered around the single keyword of "jazz."

I see. And Mr. Arata is also from Keio University, while Mr. Ezaki is a graduate of Tokyo University of the Arts.

Mr. Nakagawa, have you been a jazz lover since you were a child?

From kindergarten through the Yochisha Elementary School, I was the mascot conductor for the brass band at a child welfare facility my father operated. It was an era when children without parents often faced hardships at school and elsewhere. My father, who loved music, came up with the brass band activity. We did a little bit of jazz there too. I grew up watching those children regain their confidence and brightness through musical activities, and I felt firsthand how wonderful music is.

I listened to WONK's recordings. You call yourselves an "experimental soul band," but what does that mean?

"Soul" of course refers to old soul music like Marvin Gaye. We all love that kind of music, so we want to show that we've been influenced by it. Another meaning is that we want to make music that reaches the heart and soul. I felt there wasn't much music that was experimental yet went straight to the soul.

We called ourselves an experimental soul band in the sense that we aim for something that seems complex at first glance but resonates with the heart when you hear it.

I see, that's what it means. I listened to your songs, and the sense of transparency is somewhat similar to Marvin Gaye's "What’s Going On," which you just mentioned.

Is that so? At the root, there is that kind of soul music and jazz, and we are a band that tries to interpret that experimentally in our own way.

The word "WONK" is slang, meaning something like a nerd or a geek.

Yes, it has various meanings, including a slightly more negative sense of being a weird guy (laughs).

It also has meanings like "to sway" or "to twist," implying "people who are a bit twisted," but we actually named it by reversing the 'M' in the name of jazz pianist Thelonious Monk.

Was your new work titled "artless"? I think it fuses various genres of music as you just described, but what is the basis for it?

In my case, if I speak of the core, it comes down to things like jazz and the Beatles.

However, rather than being a core I intended, it's probably heavily influenced by the music I was made to listen to in the environment where I grew up. My parents were playing standard jazz all the time.

While I think that's likely what forms my foundation, I consider soul music and 70s funk music like Earth, Wind & Fire to be important roots that I've grasped for myself.

Recently, as a course established by the Keio University Art Center (KUAC), a class titled "Jazz Moves On!" was held over three years, and I was fortunate enough to serve as a lecturer. The Shinji Hattori Culture & Sports Foundation provided a grant for this, for which I am truly grateful.

Keio University and jazz actually have a very deep connection dating back to before the war. The first jazz song recording in Japan was made in March 1928 by "Shigeya Kikuchi and the Red Blue Club Orchestra" (Nipponophone Records, later Nippon Columbia), and the song was "My Blue Heaven." The Japanese title was "Ahozora" (laughs). As you can guess from the band name, most members were Keio students, including the leader and pianist Kikuchi, Tomonobu Masuda (tp), Toru Sakai (banjo), and Nobumitsu Takahashi (ds). I heard it was recorded at the Masuda residence. Keio University is also the root school of jazz recording.

While we were talking about such things, Mr. Hattori said, "In that case, it would be good to have a jazz history class at Keio," and the course was established. Could you tell us about the intention and background behind the founding of the Hattori Foundation?

This year marks its sixth year. The catalyst was that recently, there are people suffering in the world due to wars and extreme weather. I believe that in times like these, the role and importance of music should be re-evaluated. John Lennon's "Imagine" also influenced the anti-Vietnam War movement, didn't it? Therefore, I believe music has the power to unite humanity across borders, races, and generations. The same goes for sports.

When people see others taking on challenges in music or sports, they are moved and encouraged. That's why I established the Shinji Hattori Culture & Sports Foundation. So far, we have honored and supported about six or seven people active in sports and music each year. Some of them have gone on to take flight on the world stage. We honor not only those currently active but also those who support them.

I also find it very meaningful that you shine a spotlight on and honor those who usually don't get much attention, such as those who run alongside Paralympic athletes or those who make prosthetic limbs.

There are also people where we later think, "I'm so glad the Hattori Foundation found them." For example, the violinist Mone Hattori, who is the great-granddaughter of Ryoichi Hattori, was honored five years ago and is now a star.

Currently, Himari Yoshimura, a student at the Yochisha Elementary School, has won numerous first prizes in international violin competitions. It's amazing that such people exist.

The foundation's leaflet says we support musicians and athletes who challenge the world, but that has expanded a bit. We have also honored people like Kaisei Kihira, an autistic pianist who doesn't often get the spotlight, and we are encouraged by them as well. It's the courage to overcome handicaps through the power of music.

Regarding the support for the disaster-affected areas in Tohoku I mentioned earlier, we held concerts in the three prefectures of Miyagi, Iwate, and Fukushima, and gave wristwatch-style metronomes to the children in the brass bands. Japan's future depends on its children.

That's wonderful. The Keio University class you supported, "Jazz Moves On!", was named with the meaning of "expanding jazz," and we were able to try something new.

This was the first class established by the Keio University Art Center (KUAC), and students from any faculty could take it. Since students came from all over the Juku, I was able to talk to many different people about the fun and history of jazz.

Also, when guest lecturers came, they performed music and gave lectures. Being able to hold classes that were like a lecture and concert combined was only possible because it was established by the Art Center.

That was groundbreaking.

In the 2020 academic year, the class started right in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, so it had to start entirely as remote classes. However, thanks to that, we were able to film all the lectures remotely and keep them all in an archive. I was happy about that. I am grateful that we were able to bundle the history of jazz that had been flowing through Keio University into a single class and expand upon it.

I'm sure that 30 years from now, new facts will be discovered, and people might say, "Nakagawa said something wrong back then," but I would be happy for my work to serve as a foundation for research and even be a subject of criticism.

Has the history of jazz changed?

The more you research, the more the history of jazz changes. Until just 10 years ago, it was said that jazz was born in New Orleans, but now it is considered to have been born across the entire American South.

People who were abducted from the African continent as slaves were used for labor on Caribbean islands for a certain period on their way to America, so they were heavily influenced by calypso and other Caribbean music.

Then, from New Orleans, which had the largest slave market in the South, they were sold as slaves to various places. We tend to think jazz started in New Orleans, but the fact has emerged that it started on the various plantations where the people working as slaves lived at the time.

I'd like to talk about the music circles for Keio students. Around 2010, when Mr. Inoue was a student, there was already a movement of joining multiple clubs, wasn't there?

Yes, that's right.

That is a relatively new movement at Keio, but what kind of music circles were there?

For jazz, there was of course the Jazz Study Group, the Crossover Study Group, and then Modern Schacks.

And there is KALUA. There are two big bands, right? Light Music Society and KMP. Light is the oldest student big band in Japan.

Then there is the Pops Study Group and the Chanson Study Group.

There is also a Tsugaru Shamisen circle. There really are circles for a wide variety of genres.

However, for some circles, the content has changed while the name remains as it was at the time of founding. For example, the Off Course Study Group probably played Off Course songs initially, but now it is a band circle where you can play anything.

I think the Chanson Study Group played chansons back then, but now everyone plays the music they like. Precisely because Keio University has such a long history, there have been various transitions leading to their current forms.

The ones playing music that truly matches their titles are the Crossover Study Group, the Jazz Study Group, and Light Music.

KALUA also started with Hawaiian music long ago and was a club for people with great vocals. Now they do things like R&B.

There was an era in post-war Japan when Hawaiian music was popular. There is a Hawaiian Mita-kai, and there are many people in their 80s and 90s who still perform. Are there no Hawaiian study groups now?

KALUA and Modern Schacks were Hawaiian circles when they were first established.

I belonged to both circles, and when I go to a KALUA alumni meeting, it is like someone in their 80s playing Hawaiian on a steel guitar, followed by young people playing R&B.

Light was founded in 1946, right after the war, and many clubs were formed around that time. At Keio, light music was popular among Keio students even before the war, and it took the form of proper circles after the war.

Light has produced very famous musicians. Eiji Kitamura is still active today, isn't he?

Yes. He is a wonderful performer at 94 years old.

He is an amazing person. I had the chance to greet him once.

That is wonderful. Musicians from Light who came to teach the "Jazz Moves On!" class included improviser Masahiko Sato, trumpeter Yusuke Shima, and Yosuke Fukuda, who leads a contemporary big band called Fukuda-gumi. From Keio University, there were pianists Masaki Hayashi and Itoh Chihiro. From WONK, Kan Arata and Kan Inoue. From outside the Juku, it was truly diverse with jazz composer Miho Hazama, popular drummer Shun Ishiwaka, and guitarist May Inoue. From outside of jazz, Ryota Komatsu for Argentine tango and Hiromitsu Agatsuma for shamisen visited the Juku as guest lecturers.

Kunihiko Murai also came from Light, though he didn't become a player; he founded a company called Alfa Music, which produced acts like YMO.

He is a great composer.

Indeed. Speaking more broadly of music figures from Keio University, there is Yuzo Kayama, and you could also call Yujiro Ishihara a singer.

The public thinks Yuzo Kayama was Japan's first singer-songwriter. However, the first singer-songwriter in Japan was Setsuo Ohashi from Keio, who created Hawaiian pop songs back when Hawaiian music was popular in Japan.

That may be true.

I went to see Mr. Ohashi's last concert about a dozen years ago, and the guest was Peggy Hayama. It has been nearly 20 years since he passed away.

He used to say often that when he played the steel guitar in his garden, Yu-chan (Yujiro Ishihara) would watch from the garden. Toshio Oida was into jazz. They were friends from the Yochisha Elementary School.

Since long ago, there have been many musicians from Keio who have influenced the world in all sorts of fields.

The influence Mr. Kayama had on the Japanese pop world is wonderful. Starting with Mr. Kuwata and Yuming, who admired him, there is no end to the list if you start counting.

I think the core of jazz is ad-libbing and improvisation. Kan, you are also skilled at improvisation, aren't you?

Setting aside whether I am skilled or not, it is most enjoyable when you can truly immerse yourself in the music at that moment.

Ad-libbing is mysterious; of course, it has a very artistic side in terms of how you express what you feel at that time while matching the surrounding harmonies, but on the other hand, it also has a sporting, competitive side. Like a battle where you take turns to see whose ad-lib is more amazing.

I think jazz in the so-called bebop era was very intense in that regard. I think the dynamics of being able to move freely between the artistic and competitive nature of ad-libbing is an interesting part of jazz.

A clash of spirits.

Exactly. At first glance, sports and music seem unrelated, but I think they are very much connected.

The dynamics between the competitive nature of sports and the beauty of the body and movements are very similar to the dynamics between the competitive and artistic sides of ad-libbing in jazz. For someone playing jazz, sports and music are a combination that feels right; they share the commonality of having both artistic and competitive qualities, with the power to enhance each other both mentally and physically.

Sports are also art. When you get to the top level, it is almost all mental.

I strongly feel that the talk of feelings and mentality in interviews with top athletes resonates with musicians. I think jazz ad-libbing is a very dynamic activity that encompasses all those things.

And yet, you must have a sense of independence and self-respect.

The late Norio Maeda, a famous pianist and arranger, said he once had a battle, a competition, with a certain jazz pianist.

Mr. Maeda would play an ad-lib for about 10 seconds, then the other person would play for 10 seconds. If you couldn't play anymore, you lost. When I asked how many hours they did it, he said they went for about 4 or 5 hours.

What I found new about you, Inoue-san, was that when you graduated from the Juku, you chose to become a company employee. From the start, you chose to wear two hats as both a company employee and a musician—what we now call dual work.

From around your time, when I asked Keio students, "What is your main instrument?" people started proudly saying, "The computer." Making music with computers and using DAWs (Digital Audio Workstations) became commonplace.

In my case, the music I was doing initially was crossover and jazz, so I honestly felt the market size was too small to make a living from that as a professional.

In the old days, even if the market was small, if it had value as art, there were patrons who would support their livelihood, but these days, I think those who can capture the mass market become music professionals. However, I was certain that what I wanted to do wouldn't capture the mass market.

I see. And you don't mean that out of modesty.

Right. Also, I didn't think patrons would attach themselves to what I was doing. So, with the sense of becoming my own patron, I chose the path of making a living as a company employee while wanting my music to remain free.

The businessman Kan Inoue becomes the patron of the musician Kan Inoue. It's not that one is the primary role, is it?

That's right. After all, life is the foundation of everything. I felt that throwing that away to do only what I like didn't suit me.

That is a new way of thinking. I think it's a mindset quite suited for those aspiring to be musicians at Keio.

It is an era where that is permitted now. In the past, there were very few people active as composers while in a corporation. Only someone like Kei Ogura, who wrote "Shikuramen no Kahori." He was at the former Dai-Ichi Kangyo Bank. In the end, he was a department manager at the head office and also served as a regional branch manager.

Of course, companies have changed, and regarding music, the knowledge accumulated by our predecessors has been organized, and generations younger than us have become faster at absorbing it. The time for learning is becoming shorter and shorter.

So, I feel we are becoming a generation that, with some luck, can secure time to make music while working.

You found employment at a game company; did you intend to make music at the company as well?

The company I joined, GREE, was profitable at the time, so I thought they had plenty of funds for new businesses. Fifteen years ago, there was no Spotify or Apple Music, so in the interview, I asked if they wanted to start a new web music service, and they hired me.

So I intended to do that kind of thing, but internal circumstances changed, and now I work in a department that creates music for games, doing what you'd call sound effect production.

I'm not just being polite; WONK's music is good.

That music is a nice way to unwind.

It would be nice to listen to it in the afternoon, in front of the sea.

"artless" was made during a retreat, wasn't it? You all lived and slept in the same mountain cabin. I think it has that relaxed feel because you were making it while drinking morning coffee together.

We are in an era where healing is truly necessary.

The topic of what media we will use to listen to music in the future often comes up. It's a bit scary, but there is talk that in the near future, it will be possible to listen to music by putting a chip in your brain. What do you think about that?

No, I wouldn't want to put one in (laughs). It's hard to imagine such a world as a reality.

I think it will be realized relatively soon. But if a chip reads my pulses and says, "Your pulse is like this right now, so let's listen to this kind of mellow music," I feel that's a bit meddlesome (laughs). I still have the desire to choose for myself.

Also, like WONK's wonderful sound, I think the greatness of live music is different from reproduced or copied music. No matter how good the audio equipment you use to listen, the emotion of hearing it live is something else. Factors like breathing the same air as the performer or seeing them sweat contribute to the emotion. The greatness of live music is unchanging.

It really is about the live performance.

Yes, that's where ad-libbing is the core, or rather, the beauty lies in the fact that the performance is different every time.

Exactly, in jazz, you never do the same thing.

Even if you listen to the same song, it's different every time. Of course, even when singing a jazz standard, there are different fakes each time, or the phrasing is slightly different; the fun you feel at a live show is how the way of singing is completely different depending on the person.

Even with the same singer, the voice changes subtly depending on their physical condition.

Vocals really do have a mysterious power to attract people. They have a kind of power that appeals to the core, which instruments don't have.

Even when listening to Vocaloid music, you still can't quite recognize it as a human voice. I think that's not just because the sound is different, but because human voices are more fundamentally powerful in the way they convey nuances that appeal to our core—like a voice sensing danger, a scream, or whether someone is angry or sad.

It's emotion. Wundt's "theory of the emotional origin of speech" is one of the theories on the origin of song.

So it's about sentiment. In a single vowel like "a" or "i," sadness or joy is contained.

I'm interested to see how much power Vocaloids and AI can have to appeal to our core. If the day comes when we truly cannot intuitively distinguish between a Vocaloid and a human voice, that would be incredible.

The moment when music made by AI moves people is already in sight. Since there are degrees of being moved, the question is how much it will shake our souls. I wonder if we will still remember it the next day, or find ourselves singing the melody—that, I don't know yet.

Ultimately, the merit of singing or playing an instrument yourself comes from the fact that it possesses physicality. I don't think that will be lost, no matter how indistinguishable from human voices AI becomes.

Perhaps the focus will shift toward the act of singing or playing oneself, no matter how unpolished it may be.

In that case, it's all about live performance.

Then we'll have to have you sing more and more (laughs).

Mr. Hattori, you run the "Seiko Summer Jazz Camp" as part of music education. For five days during summer vacation, you invite top-tier jazz musicians from New York to Japan to teach jazz for free, primarily to Japanese students.

That's right. The intent is to create opportunities for young people to come into contact with top-tier musicians from the home of jazz. Even for those who take jobs unrelated to music in the future, learning the history, culture, and background of jazz broadens their horizons as human beings. Learning directly from world-class instructors is encouraging. In fact, several professionals have emerged from the program.

For example, I recently met the mother of a drummer named Kaito Nakamura. She said that by joining the summer camp, even without studying abroad, teachers from the US came and taught him various jazz knowledge.

In Japan, music education tends to become overly serious, but these teachers teach the joy of jazz. Their way of teaching is also different from Japan.

We do it as part of our social contribution, but music is something that is truly necessary right now.

Exactly. I want to shout that from the rooftops. Yet, music is being reduced in school curriculums.

In my own small way, I hope that jazz spreads in Japan, creating a circle through jazz and bringing smiles to everyone's faces.

I agree. When you play music together, you naturally become friends.

Regarding future music originating from Keio University, it's not just jazz. Koki Nakamura, an SFC student who became the best in Japan at the Tsugaru Shamisen, has made his major debut. I think more and more unique Keio students will emerge and be active in the future.

The Light Music Society raised money through crowdfunding to release a new CD. They even went to ask Miho Hazama, who is at the forefront of modern jazz, to compose for them.

The concept of Japan's oldest student big band producing the newest jazz and releasing a CD feels very much like Keio.

Jazz certainly has a sense of playfulness. Music that brightens the world and its people expands bonds. I believe music plays a major role in expanding circles across borders and races to become one.

When we talk about jazz, we often perceive it more in terms of its spirituality rather than as a musical form.

We believe the spirituality of jazz lies in its ability to constantly incorporate and expand into adjacent genres. I feel there is a great affinity with jazz in the way it incorporates cultures different from its own while everyone enjoys working together.

I think jazz is still thriving today because it has an expanding system. Once-in-fifty-year talents are emerging from young people now, and I couldn't be more excited.

Lecturing on jazz history at Keio University, what I feel now is the excellence of the Keio students. It was a great pleasure to read their final assignments (laughs). Also, having taught during the COVID-19 pandemic, I strongly feel the vitality of jazz—the power to overcome difficulties and move forward. The pandemic highlighted problems in various countries, such as the "Black Lives Matter" movement and Asian hate in the US. The students seemed surprised and hurt by hearing about these facts on social media. In that context, we listened to "Strange Fruit," known for Billie Holiday's masterpiece performance. Her tearful voice sang out the foolishness of discriminating against fellow human beings.

By learning the history of African Americans who did not succumb to discrimination by creating and performing jazz, we also strengthened our desire for the abolition of racial discrimination. I feel that listening to and performing jazz contributes to the realization of a society without discrimination.

Not limited to Keio, I will continue to support young, talented people. I believe that is my role.

We look forward to it. Mr. Inoue, I wish you continued success. Thank you very much for today.