Admiring Carpets

私は檀さんの『父の縁側、私の書斎』の中の「絨毯、こわい」というエッセーを拝読し、絨毯がお好きということを初めて知ったんです。

もう絨毯には限りなくエピソードがございまして、何度失敗したことか（笑）。何回も買っていますが、一番悲しかったのは、ある時、畳一畳より少し大きいくらいのペルシャ絨毯を、セールで結構安くなっていたので思い切って買ったんですね。

「これは素晴らしい、完璧」と思って家の床に置いたら、3日後ぐらいに母が、「あなた。猫が絨毯におしっこしているみたいよ」と言う（笑）。そこで、逆上して水をかけてしまったら染料がブワーッと溶け出し、青くなってしまった。その青いまんま、いまだに家にあります。

もう1つ、イスタンブールに行った時に、海が描かれたとても心惹かれる絨毯に出会い、買って山の家に置いたんですよ。そうしたら、半年行かない間に浸水していたんです。絨毯にもカビが生えて、端っこがぼろぼろに。すごく悲しかった。気に入った絨毯には、たいてい、悲しい想い出があって。

それでも、こりもせず、新しい家にした時に、ベッドの足もと用の絨毯を買ったんですよ。そうしたらそれも猫が。

引っ搔いたんですか。

そう。猫は古いシルクの絨毯には爪立てなかったので、シルクにしたんです。そうしたら新しいものにはなぜか爪を立てるの（笑）。中からいろいろ糸が伸びてきて。いつも絨毯をコロコロで掃除していますが、そのたびにヒョロヒョロと出ているものが悲しいなと思っています。

そのように絨毯に惹かれるのはどうしてですか。

どうしてでしょうね。だって、鎌田さんもお好きなわけでしょう？

私は子どもの時、父の仕事でパキスタンのカラチに3年間いたんです。イランから流れてくる絨毯を扱う一家がいて、ペルシャ絨毯を買うようになったのですね。

両親がそれを日本に持ち帰ったので、子どもの頃から身近な調度でした。私自身、まさか大人になり、絨毯の研究をするとは思っていなかったのですが、大学院博士課程でニューヨーク大学に行き、博士論文を書く時に、先生から「日本に伝わるイスラーム美術品について研究してみては？」と言われたんですね。

実は祇園祭の山鉾にはインドやペルシャの絨毯がかかっています。オランダ東インド会社が江戸時代に持ってきたものです。それがどこで作られ、どういう経緯で持ってこられているかを調べようと、絨毯を専門に研究するようになったんです。

そうですか。

絨毯は調べれば調べるほど面白く、また美しく、触れば手触りがよく、知識欲も満たされます。インテリアとして集めるのも楽しいですし。

榊さんはどういうきっかけで絨毯の輸入をされるようになったのですか？

かれこれ絨毯を商って35年ぐらいになりますね。最初は学生時代、友人の彼女が、パキスタン人の絨毯屋さんでアルバイトをすることになったことに始まるんですね。友達のほうもパキスタン人に上手く言いくるめられ、会社を突然辞めて絨毯屋になった（笑）。

僕も展示会を見にいったところ、すごく惹かれてしまい、時代もバブル時代、あまり将来も考えずにその友達と2人で絨毯屋を始めました。最初はパキスタンの絨毯屋さんの絨毯を預かって販売するような形で、何もないところから始めたんです。

すごい。それは勇気があるわ。

先ほど檀さんが水をかけて失敗したと言われましたが、私は今朝、先週アフガニスタンから届いた絨毯を洗っていたんですよ。

水で洗うのですか？

ええ。ただ、洗う時に注意しなければいけない点があります。漬け置きみたいにすると色が移ったりする。また、新しい絨毯は色が移りや すいですね。

色が移るというか、抜けてきてしまいますよね。染料が落ち着いていないのでしょうね。

そういうことですね。着物とかも、そうですよね。

着物も草木染で糸を染めるものがあります。織り手の名人が、まず染めたての糸を見ると「隠せ」と言うんですって。タンスの中に2、3年眠らせていると、何となく織ってもいいかなというような色に落ち着いてくると言っていました。

私が買った絨毯は出来たてだったのでしょうか。

そうかもしれませんね。

また日本で買うと、房が両端きれいに揃っていますでしょう。ところがシンガポールで買ったものを開けてみたら、片方に房がないんですよ。「これはだまされたのでは」と思っていたら、向こうでは房が不揃いなのは普通なのだそうですね。

そうなんです。房は絨毯を織る際の経糸(たていと)になるので、どうしても必要になりますが、織り上がったら切ってしまうこともできる。ただ、日本ではなぜかこの房をすごく気にする。

シンメトリーでないと気になりますよね。

あと、房が長いほうが高級品だという話もあったり。

それは伝説？

実際は関係ないですけど、そういうことがバブル期に人気のあったペルシャ絨毯にはありました。ただ、実際に経糸が多いほうが結び目が細かい絨毯なので、房がたくさん付いているほうが、織りの密度という意味では高級という感じはあります。でも長さは、あまり関係ない（笑）。

檀さんは寝室にもペルシャ絨毯を置かれているんですか？

小さいものですけど、ベッドの足もと用に。寝室はフローリングなので、朝起きて降りる時、固くてヒヤッとしますよね。シルクのすべすべしたやさしさが、素足には心地いいです。

色とデザインがきれいという視覚に加えて、触り心地も絨毯の魅力の1つですよね。

雑誌で読んだのですが、坂東玉三郎さんもご自宅の寝室にすごくいい絹のペルシャ絨毯を敷かれていて、目覚めて、一番初めに触れるものが美しいものでありたいということでした。そういう触覚の楽しみもありますよね。

絨毯は、そこに置くだけで部屋が華やかになったり、がらりと雰囲気が変わったり、いろいろなアクセントにもなりますね。

私は雑誌の企画で、裏千家のお家元をお招きしてお茶会を開いたことがありますが、その時に例の海が描かれたトルコの絨毯を敷いて、海の上でお茶会を開いているような感じにしようと言って、山まで1人で取りにいきました。そうしたら、重くて、重くて（笑）。

絨毯は本当に重いですから。

本当に爪がはがれるかと思いました。きれいな絨毯でしたが、カビてしまって、あれはもう甦らないですよね？

実物を見ればできるかもしれないですね。毎年、地元の修理屋さんと一緒に絨毯の買い付けに行きます。僕が扱っているのは古い絨毯なので、少し破れていたり、房がもうなかったりするからです。

頼もしいです。一度現地から呼んでいただきたい（笑）。

やはり修理して、また元に戻して100年ぐらい使えるのも絨毯の魅力だと思います。

タイルだったら1000年前のものとか残っていますよね。ローマ遺跡のタイルを見た時、「わあ、絨毯みたい」と思ったのですが、絨毯とタイルではどちらが先なのかしら。

絨毯の歴史はすごく古いです。起源がわからないぐらい。現存最古はシベリアのお墓にあったパジリク絨毯と呼ばれるもので、かなりいい状態で出てきたものです。紀元前4世紀のものと言われています。

シベリアから！

パジリク渓谷というバイカル湖の近くです。冬はかなり冷えるところで、偶然が重なり、奇跡的に残った絨毯です。

スキタイという古い騎馬民族のお墓から出たのですが、スキタイは金製品のバックル、冠やベルトとかを古くからつくっていた民族で、たぶん墓泥棒がそこに入って金製品だけ盗んで絨毯は残っていたようです。

その後、水が中に入り込んでシベリアだから凍ったんでしょうね。偶然が重なったことで、絨毯が奇跡的に冷凍保存状態になったんです。

色もきれいなままなんですか？

きれいに残り、今、エルミタージュ美術館にあるので見ることができます。とにかく奇跡的な状態で残っています。

騎馬民族は行く先々で絨毯を敷いていますものね。常に持ち歩いて。

絨毯も大きく分けると2種類あります。ペルシャ絨毯のように都市の工房で商品としてつくられるものと、遊牧民が彼らの生活の中で作ってきたタイプの「トライバルラグ」と言われるものです。遊牧民はヤギやヒツジといった家畜を飼っているので、自分たちで毛を刈り、紡ぎ、それを女性が織り、それら全てが家財になるのですね。敷物だけではなく、袋物にしたり、生活に必要な道具を全部織って作ります。

榊さんは特にトライバルラグを扱われていますが、欧米にはトライバルラグのコレクターがたくさんいて、オークションもあり、同好の人が集まるソサエティもたくさんあるんです。一方、日本は欧米ほどにはそれが根付いていない。でも、私はだんだんトライバルなもののほうにはまってきています。

まず、都市の絨毯に比べると、価格が抑えられていて集めやすい。それと遊牧民は今、定住化政策などでだんだん少なくなっています。これまであったものがなくなっていくことはとても残念であり、それゆえ当時の技術で作ったものに心惹かれます。だから古いものを欲しくなってしまう。

今、作られているものではなく、古いものということですね。

はい、大体100年ぐらい前ですね。そういうものはまだまだ買えます。それが部族ごとに色や文様が皆違うので、それを知ると、また面白くなり、次は何族のものが欲しいとなってしまう。

それぞれの部族のトライバルラグについて、榊さんはたぶん日本で一番お詳しいディーラーでいらっしゃって、現地の遊牧民からたくさん購入されています。

遊牧民の方々は、親から受け継いだ古いものを持っていたりするわけですか。

そうですね。私は最初は1988年、イラン・イラク戦争の末期のイランに行きました。そこでトルクメンという部族に出会い、それまで知らなかったトライバルラグに出会ったんですね。

エスファハーンという、日本で言えば京都のような古都で、何もやることがなく町を歩いていたら、1人の若者が声をかけてくれた。周りはひげの濃い人ばかりの中、彼は日本人のような顔をしていました。

それでホッとして話をしたら、彼はトルクメン族で、エスファハーンの美術学校にカスピ海の近くのゴンバデ・カーブースというトルクメンが多い町から、カリグラフィーの勉強に来ていたのです。その他にも美術学校では、クルド人やアルメニア人などいろいろな人たちが絵や伝統工芸の勉強をしていて、小さなカレッジみたいでした。

彼らも日本人が珍しかったのか受け入れてくれて、そこで1週間ほど過ごした経験が、トライバルラグに惹かれる大きなきっかけでした。

トライバルラグは本当に生活の中から生み出されているのが魅力です。民藝の柳宗悦も1950年代に、家畜の背にかけて荷物を運ぶために遊牧民が作った袋物を、クッションのようにして書斎のソファーに置いているのですね。

柳は、絨毯について、そのデザインは生活の歴史の中から出てきたもので、作為がなく、生活そのものからつくられる美しさがあるとして、理想的な工芸品と位置付けている。そのことは驚きでした。

もう少し若い民藝の芹沢銈介や濱田庄司は、たくさんトライバルなものを持っています。民藝の人たちが理想とする美を体現するものの1つに遊牧民の絨毯もあるのですね。

I call myself a "self-appointed disciple" of the painter Fumiko Hori, and I used to visit her home often.

In her final years, when she became frail, I stayed by her side. Ms. Hori was someone who truly traveled the world, and she would bring back various folk crafts to decorate her room. Many of her works were left behind with those as motifs. She also collected a lot of fabrics. She used to say that the lack of artifice and the beauty of things born out of daily life were wonderful, and I think that is truly the case.

Regarding the distribution of carpets, I feel that for a long time in Japan, the selling side focused on marketing things that were the most profitable, easiest to sell, or easiest to obtain. I have been dealing with them for about 35 years, but when I started, even Pakistani carpets were hardly found in Japan. At that time, the mainstream was Chinese Dantsu (hand-knotted carpets).

We had Dantsu in our home, too.

All over Japan, if you went to a slightly wealthy home, there was always a large Dantsu laid out. It was the first hand-woven carpet to enter Japan in large quantities. I believe the background to this was Kakuei Tanaka's Japan-China friendship. At that time, China had almost no export products, so Chinese-made carpets known as Tianjin Dantsu came in, and I think they sold widely partly due to political intentions.

I see. I put a Dantsu in a slightly large room of the first house I built; was that thanks to Mr. Kakuei? (Laughs). However, carpets back then were large, heavy, and thick. Before long, I decided, "I don't need this anymore."

That's right. They were very heavy. After that, Persian carpets entered the market right during the bubble era. The carpets themselves were wonderful, but there was confusion regarding the pricing...

At that time, the talk was always about how the more expensive it was, the better, or the finer the weave, the better.

Exactly. People from Iran were bringing them to Japan. At that time, there was a massive economic gap between Iran and Japan, and it's said that if you brought one carpet and sold it in Japan, you could make enough profit to build an apartment building in Iran.

If you bought a slightly large carpet with a fine weave, the price was far beyond what you'd pay for a car in Japan, wasn't it?

After the bubble burst, carpets suddenly stopped selling, and the Iranian sellers were in trouble, so they started selling them directly at low prices. Suddenly, the price dropped to about one-tenth. That's when sales began in a form completely different from previous distribution channels. People who had bought them at high prices lost trust in the pricing, and carpets developed a negative image.

Later, kilims became popular among fashionable women and came in along with Asian furniture, kimonos, and crafts. They sold very well for a while, but those people aged and entered a phase of "Danshari" (decluttering), deciding not to increase their possessions anymore.

That's exactly my generation.

There is one more type called Gabbeh, which is probably the best-selling hand-woven carpet in Japan. These are claimed to be woven by Iranian nomads, but many are commercial carpets. With animals appearing playfully within the patterns, they appeal to Japanese sensibilities and remain popular today.

However, these are not as fine as Persian carpets and can be woven anywhere. So, imitations from places like India and China have appeared on the market, and again, there is a price difference between original Gabbehs and others. In this way, I think carpets are always easily influenced by various factors.

But I suppose that just shows how much everyone loves carpets.

I think so. Looking back at the history of carpets, you can see they were incredibly popular items. The production areas for carpets geographically overlap with the Islamic world. Good wool could be obtained, and as Islam spread, the custom of using carpets also spread. This is because carpets were absolutely essential furnishings in Islamic courts. High-quality carpets were woven in court workshops in Persia, Turkey, and India.

Then, carpets from the Islamic world were brought to Europe as commodities or gifts. From the 14th century onwards, Turkish carpets were depicted in Italian paintings. They were painted in religious scenes, for example, in the Annunciation or under the Virgin and Child. The depiction was so detailed that they are even classified by the painter's name; for instance, if it was Lorenzo Lotto, it's called a Lotto carpet.

First, the church authorities, then the rising Italian merchant class, and then European monarchs eagerly acquired them from the 14th to the 17th or 18th centuries. At first, there were many Turkish carpets, but gradually the focus shifted to Persian and Indian ones.

From the 17th century onwards, the East India Company had items with designs popular in Europe produced locally and brought them into Europe. In that way, Europe has always been eagerly collecting carpets. I think they have a charm that remains unchanged.

It seems very interesting to follow the carpets seen in paintings. Come to think of it, in Vermeer's paintings, there are some where a carpet is placed on top of a table.

Exactly. At that time, they were generally used as tablecloths rather than being laid on the floor to be stepped on.

I see, because they were precious items.

Yes. But because they were precious, for example, in portraits of Henry VIII, he had himself depicted standing on a carpet. So, carpets also functioned as status symbols, and portraits of monarchs almost all show them standing on Persian or Turkish carpets.

Reading the documents of the East India Company, people of that time also understood that Persian carpets were the best. They also knew that finely woven carpets from places like Lahore in North India were good. On the other hand, if they had designs popular in Europe produced as commodities in Southern India, they could be made cheaply. Such items came into various parts of Europe and Japan.

The Indian carpets still existing in Japan have designs that remain only in Japan. Dutch merchants understood the popular designs on the Japanese side and brought red-colored ones that were popular in Japan. Looking at the carpets, the close relationship between the Japanese side and the Dutch and Indian merchants of that time seems to emerge.

You mentioned that tribal rugs are woven by women from various nomadic tribes. When I was researching kimonos, I found that even with similar ikat patterns that looked the same, the production methods and dyes were completely different depending on the region, reflecting the unique processes and characteristics of that area. In the case of tribal rugs, do they also differ by region?

That's right. "Tribe" means a group of people, and each tribe has very distinct characteristics in terms of color, pattern, technique, and material. For example, the Turkmen have very high skills in making carpets.

Turkmen carpets are red and have a sort of jewel-like feel, don't they?

Turkmen rugs are almost all red. The Turkmen and Baluch tribes are overwhelmingly numerous among tribal rugs. For example, the number of carpets to be brought at the time of a wedding might be fixed.

As a wedding present?

No, as a dowry. They start weaving from a very young age for their own marriage. The items to be brought, such as the number of bags, salt bags, and saddlebags, are strictly determined.

There are even decorative carpets for camels used only for the wedding. Since a large quantity is required, the skill naturally becomes high. In that way, carpets were closely integrated into daily life.

So they have characteristics that represent themselves, like the tartan patterns of Scotland?

Exactly. The Turkmen, in particular, have octagonal patterns called göl or gül, which are like Japanese family crests.

Even among the Turkmen, they are divided into various sub-tribes like Tekke, Yomut, Salor, Saryk, and Ersari. You can even tell the family lineage, such as the Suleyman family. These crest-like patterns continue to be woven even today.

That's the kind of thing that makes you get hooked (laughs).

In Japanese textiles like ikat, each pattern has a meaning, and there are various ways of weaving them, too.

Among the Turkmen as well, tribal patterns are passed down as girls learn from their mothers from a young age. In Japan, weaving was also once passed down from mother to daughter in rural villages, so they are very similar in that regard.

I heard from a young female diplomat at the Turkmenistan Embassy in Shibuya that even now, carpet weaving is a compulsory subject in high school. It's said that most women can still weave carpets skillfully today.

In that sense, it would be great if there were opportunities in Japan to become familiar with textiles through classes in high school or middle school.

On the other hand, in the last few years, a new interior style called "BOHO" has become popular in the West. BOHO stands for Bohemian and New York's Soho, and it involves combining various textiles from around the world with interiors. There is a new movement where young people are also drawn to tribal things.

In a global society, everything from fast fashion to everything else is becoming standardized worldwide. Within that, perhaps people are drawn to authentic things with various stories. That's why I think handmade items with warmth are preferred.

As you said, in the last year or two, young people in their 30s have become very interested in tribal rugs, especially old ones, and I've become unexpectedly busy.

That's good to hear.

Until now, for 30 years in Japan, there were almost no people dealing in tribal rugs. In the West, many research books have been published and anyone knows about them to some extent, but in Japan, people would say, "Tribal rugs? What's that?"

I heard that term for the first time today, too. Although I knew such things existed.

In the last two or three years, it has suddenly spread among the younger generation through SNS, and celebrities have started posting photos, so it feels like the market has suddenly changed.

I think tribal rugs also have a "healing effect." The psychiatrist Freud was also a collector of tribal rugs, and he draped a large Qashqai rug over the couch in the room where he saw his patients. That consulting room remains as it was in the Freud Museum in London, and I think it must have had an effect of soothing emotions.

That's true. I also used to wonder why nomads would spend so much time and effort dyeing yarn and putting in such complex patterns when a plain tool would suffice.

There is a new trend in archaeology called cognitive archaeology. It seems that for 200,000 years, humans hardly put any patterns on their tools, but about 30,000 to 50,000 years ago, something called the "Big Bang of the Mind" occurred, and they began to paint murals in caves and put patterns on the stone tools they used. It seems this happened simultaneously in multiple places, and our lives began to change suddenly.

In this way, patterns, colors, and designs might have a significant impact on human psychology. That's why I sometimes feel, looking at carpets, that nomads put so much effort into incorporating colors and patterns into their kimonos and everyday items.

That's right. That's probably why I like carpets, too. I long for a room with clean hardwood floors, but once I have that, I find myself wanting things with various patterns.

The beauty of carpets has also attracted artists. Delacroix said, "The most beautiful painting I have ever seen is a Persian carpet." William Morris was a collector of Persian carpets, and his own designs were significantly influenced by Islamic art.

In the past, only royalty, aristocrats, and great merchants collected superior Persian carpets; even in the early 20th century, it was industrialists like Rockefeller. Now, even ordinary people can buy them, and I think it's a good era. Even for ordinary citizens, if it's a tribal item, they can buy something old and good.

Are the old tribal rugs ones that were actually used?

They were used as tools. In addition to floor coverings inside tents, rugs were needed to cover the tent frames and serve as roofs or walls. Nomads move often, moving almost twice a year.

So they have been washed considerably by wind, sand, and rain.

Yes. It's called weathering, but because they have been well-used, excess hair is removed.

Sheep are very delicate, and the quality of their wool changes depending on their food and other factors. So, nomads take them to cool mountaintops during the hot summer so the sheep can eat delicious grass comfortably and without stress. The wool of sheep raised healthily and without stress has incredible resilience. As a material itself, rugs woven by nomads have a very healthy appeal.

They use what they have raised themselves.

Nomads raise the material starting from the sheep. They shear the wool and wash it clean. They loosen it into a cotton-like state and spin it. It's all done by hand and takes a lot of time. Of course, the same goes for weaving. Rugs made that way are, as you mentioned earlier, not that expensive. That's also an attraction.

Stop it, you'll make me want to buy more (laughs).

Since you have so many, Professor Kamada, what do you do with them all?

I keep some in my office at Hiyoshi, but because Hiyoshi is so rich in nature, clothes moths get into them and leave holes. It makes me want to cry.

So, I'm constantly airing them out and checking for insects; it's like caring for a pet (laughs). Once you come to love tribal pieces, you even start to find the repair marks endearing.

That's quite something. It's like having a pet!?

Exactly. In places like Turkey, families repair old items themselves, almost like lace knitting. So, if you look closely at something you've bought, you might find repairs, but instead of feeling disappointed, you realize how much the previous owner cherished it. I think there's a certain charm in that.

Lying down on a rug like that, it feels like you could sense the wind felt by the nomads.

Nomads really don't have much attachment. First of all, unlike Japanese people, they have no attachment to land. And they aren't tied down by possessions. Things made by nomads have a sort of light, airy feel to them.

For example, I also like things from Indonesia or Africa, but sometimes I feel something a bit heavy or dark there, like something ritualistic or magical. Nomads don't really have that sense. Even their graves are often just a stone placed simply on the ground.

That's true. Since they don't own land, they can't keep many things there. Conversely, I think the minimum essentials they do carry must be incredibly precious to them.

In Japan, for example, people borrow money using real estate as collateral, but in rural Iran, real estate doesn't have much value. Instead, carpets have value, and it's said that there are many fine carpets in the basements of Iranian banks. If you bring an expensive carpet to a bank, you can borrow money.

I went to a carpet auction at Sotheby's in New York once in 2009, and most of the people there were from the Middle East; they also want to acquire fine pieces as assets.

I bid on one item there. It was after the 2008 Lehman shock and the day after a heavy snowfall, so there were few people, and I was able to buy it just by raising my hand once.

That's wonderful. What kind of carpet is it?

It was woven in South India in the 18th century, exactly the kind the Dutch were producing as a commodity, and it's the same type as those hanging on the floats of the Gion Festival. It seems to have been a massive carpet; it's just a fragment of the border, but even that is quite large.

My first encounter with carpets was probably a large one my grandmother brought back from Shanghai, which was in the children's bedroom we called the "Carpet Room." That one was so worn down that the foundation was showing. The yarn—the pile—was almost completely gone. Since carpets are consumables, I sometimes wonder if it's okay to vacuum them every day like this.

I think normal vacuuming is fine. In places with high foot traffic like hotels or shops, they inevitably wear down. Also, the level of dirt is different between a lifestyle of wearing shoes indoors and one where you take them off. Nomads also take their shoes off inside their tents and live by lying or sitting on carpets, so items brought from the source aren't very dirty.

You can't really tell the texture through the soles of shoes, after all. By touching the carpet, actually sitting or lying on it, and having it touch your skin, the texture is conveyed, and I feel an affection for the carpet grows.

And then they become like pets, just like with Professor Kamada (laughs).

Also, Japanese people tend to love the Silk Road, and we find the nostalgic image held by nomads very appealing, don't we?

Yes. Since it's completely different from the Japanese, who were originally an agricultural people, there's a great sense of yearning.

Interacting with various ethnic groups is interesting. Currently, I import carpets from Afghanistan through Peshawar in Pakistan as the gateway. There are various Afghan ethnic groups there—Turkmen, Uzbek, Tajik, Hazara, and Pashtun—and you really feel the differences in character when doing business. Turkmen and Hazara people are proper and reliable, and their response time is good.

Uzbeks are easygoing but very sharp when it comes to money. Pashtuns are wild and pushy, and sometimes the carpets they send are different from what was ordered. You have to be able to read those differences, or business becomes difficult.

I think it's amazing that you've been dealing with people on the ground for 30 years. I just stay in Japan and buy them.

Basically, going to buy them is what I love most. I just want to buy things I've never seen before. So, I've never thought of it as a hardship. Selling them is the hard part, though (laughs).

Currently, carpet prices are lowest in Afghanistan. This is because the cost of living is overwhelmingly low. Economically, it's incredibly difficult, and most of the population is in severe financial distress.

Afghanistan hasn't changed much between 300 years ago and now. Because of the constant civil war, foreigners haven't entered. Since last year has been a time of great upheaval in Afghanistan, I don't know what will happen in the future. It would be a shame if things that have lasted for hundreds or thousands of years disappeared in our era, so I hope we can somehow pass them on to the next generation.

The MIHO MUSEUM in Shiga Prefecture has a very fine Persian carpet from the late 16th century. It was originally owned by the Polish royal family and had been on loan to the Metropolitan Museum of Art for a long time before they purchased it.

Hideyoshi used a 16th-century Persian kilim as a surcoat (haori), and the same type of kilim in its state before being cut up is also at the MIHO MUSEUM. That is also world-famous.

There are truly many wonderful things in Japan as well. Of course, the Gion Festival is a prime example. Also, Japan is currently very popular among overseas textile enthusiasts. I don't think there is any other kimono textile culture with such a high level of quality.

The books you wrote about kimonos ("Dan-ryu Kimono-michi" and "Dan-ryu Kimono Junrei") are very precious records. It clearly shows that you conducted your interviews with a sense of urgency.

Rather than a sense of urgency, I felt sad every time. It's like a prayer for things that are dying. There are things that are directly connected to nature, the environment, and culture, such that as long as this dyeing exists, Japan will be okay. I believe there are also carpets such that as long as they exist, the world will be okay.

I've heard some truly valuable stories today. Thank you.